H2d multi material supports

The Once in a Six Side youtube channel just put out a video today showing the issues using various support materials for miniature figures:

He seems to run into a lot of the issues I’ve been reading about in the forums, where the multi materials are causing failures, doing just interface layer or the full support in the support material, both setups had problems.

Wondering if anyone gotten consistent results using multi materials for supports, and with what material for support and what settings?

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I have been in the same boat here trying to print some of the mini’s that are too complicated for typical support removal. So far my results are about the same as the video. But I am not afraid to keep tinkering as I bought the roll of PVA so I will use it up in the name of science.

My results so far. PVA with a .2mm nozzle is an absolute no go (clogged immediately). With the .4mm nozzle I have been able to get two successful prints, but it has been an absolute trial. And honestly, if I am forced to use a .4mm to get a lower resolution print, whats the point. The whole purpose was good dissolvable support using a .2mm nozzle for good detail. I feel like if the printer would allow me to use a .4mm nozzle for the PVA support, and a .2mm nozzle for the PLA, I could eventually get it to work. But Bambu does not support mismatched nozzles at the moment. A slicing nightmare for sure, but something that could be fixed in software not hardware.

But here is what I have found so far. The Bambu presets for the filament temps are too low for multi material. To get PVA and PLA to bond at all with each other, I had to bump the presets up 10C. Even then, you get a low bond. So you need to make sure all of your interface spacing is set to zero (all of them! XY Top and bottom) then you want a lot of support expansion (both the initial layer and the normal support expansion). then tighten up the base pattern spacing as well to make the support mesh denser. The theory here is you are not relying on a bond at the interface, but creating a mold or bowl around the part for the detail to sit into. There really needs to be a setting for a “solid block” of support that encases the print completely. Wasteful, yes, but for dissolvables, this is probably closer to the correct approach.

Lastly, I am drying the PVA constantly. Not 18 hours, not 24 hours. Just like constantly. In a dedicated dryer that feeds to the left nozzle. No AMS. It is feeding directly out of the dryer that is always heating. The filament leaves the dryer warm and noodle-y and cools just enough on its way to the Bowden tube to be properly extruded.

That said, none of this is a sure thing. Thats my experience so far.

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My experience with Bambus’s "Support for PLA/PETG has been slightly better. It is perfect for large overhangs with lots of surface area. But it is not a solution for minis.

It doesn’t solve the interlocking support issue at all because it is actual quite a strong material when it is bonded to itself. If it crushed easer, and so could be broken up for removal, it might be better. The ideal material would be one that was extremely brittle once cooled, so it would just fall apart.

Save that stuff for supporting flat bottom parts that can’t rest directly on the build plate. It has a use, just not the one we want.

I came here to express my concern about this video, as well. My H2D is on order and printing with support is my primary usage case.

Has anyone tried the “new” support for PLA (the white stuff)? I’m not so concerned about printing miniatures; I’ll primarily be doing prototyping for fit and function (engineering design validation).

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This is the video I’ve been waiting for. One of the reasons I didn’t buy the printer straight away. My main use would be two different materials, one for support. Which just goes to prove that you don’t buy a printer right away, you wait. This is still a problem with the filament profiles and will surely be solved. I’d rather wait until it works. I don’t want to be a early adopter.

Anyone who enjoys it should buy the printer, but I need a workhorse that delivers reliable performance. It’s sad, though, that one of the most important features doesn’t work right from the start.

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Just be aware, PVA is very sensitive to temp changes. If you get out of the range it likes, it will permanently clog your nozzle. For a $15 0.2mm/0.4mm nozzle that’s not a big deal, but that can change if you like the High Flow $50 version.

Also note, I’m not saying 10C is going to bin your nozzle, just bringing up the awareness that PVA is not forgiving when it is printed hot.

For the thread in general

I’ve found the multi-material printing capabilities very useful. However, with filaments that don’t bind well together, I find the 90mm/sec prime tower printing speed is too fast, as well as the support interface printing speed. Slow both down to 25-40mm/sec and I think you’ll see a bump in consistency.

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is this really an H2D issue, or just a PVA issue? everything i’ve been told is that PVA is a huge pain, and the time i printed with it - yup, huge pain

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I hear you. I am still in range of the recommended PVA temp, just closer to the high end.

Yes, it works as designed for things with large surface area, like engineering shapes. It is just poor for small fiddly shapes with very little contact surface (like figurines). It also is no good if it will be interlocked with the part in someway that prevents its removal. But for easy tear away, and holding up broad flat overhangs, it has worked well for me. It too needs to be dried well to work and I push the temp up a little to help it bond a little better on small geometries.

You should not be concerned about the video. Instead of problem solving he picks the most problematic support type and makes a dramatic video while asking for donations.

No rational person would buy a $2500 FDM for miniatures. You could buy an A series and a nice resin printer for the same money.

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What works, and doesn’t work, with supports has little to do with the H2D.

Support profiles are nothing more than a few variables. There are STLs on makers world where that can be downloaded and tested.

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I’m sorry, I have no idea what you’re trying to tell me, have you seen the same video? Of course it is the H2D and the software or, as I said, the default settings. They are not yet optimised. The machine is not yet optimized to print support material as advertised. That was my argumentation = erlay adopter.

With printers like the X1C, the use of support material works very well, but the waste is too high. On the other hand, many people have problems with H2D. So, yes, it’s up to Bambu to tweak it, usually before release, now they just have to do it afterwards.

Of course, users can also do that, but that’s hardly the point if you want to use it as a work tool and start using it immediately. especially when you consider the price. Besides the fact that support material is also extremely expensive to misuse for failures and testing.

No matter how you look at it, it’s a good reason not to buy the printer yet, but to wait.

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I’ve had mixed results using that. Sometimes it works perfectly, other times it bonds/fuses completely with the main PLA layer.

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I suppose the “new” support for PLA probably deserves its own topic. Thanks.

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Indeed, there is a topic for the new support material:

(sorry about cluttering up this topic).

I can appreciate the sentiment that people want a tool that just works, but on the other hand, there are very few tools in this world that don’t require you to develop at least some base level of technique to be used properly. Even a pair of scissors won’t cut right unless you have good technique (that’s why left handed scissors are real).

I don’t find the difficulty in using multi material to be the fault of the machine ( I just don’t understand all of the material science involved in it yet. I’ve built a few 3D printers and other CNC machines over the years and the mechanics of the H2D seem solid. What remains is learning how to use it most effectively and honing various techniques using the smorgasbord of technologies at our disposal. That is filaments, software, and hardware, all of which perform differently in different scenarios. Unforeseen variables aside, there is still no one solution that will work well with all geometries. Technique is the ability to look at the task at hand, and applying experience to select the proper processes that create the highest chance of success. What the video shows is that this person is still experimenting and gaining domain knowledge. Learning things can be very emotional, this person is just expressing some of that in the video.

In regards to how much bambu can do to optimize their presets, they are a business, and so will only tune to what is going to be most useful for the widest range of scenarios. Extreme uses, like printing mini figs, well, usually falls on the users to come up with solutions and workarounds. If you watch this person’s other videos, they have honed a bunch of other techniques for using resin supports on A series printers to get excellent results with mini figs. It would be cool if Bambu released a bunch of presets for mini’s, and added “resin style” support to the slicer, but don’t hold your breath.

Back on the PVA, it is really a terrible material, but I am slowly getting it to work. The thing that has made the most difference is the nonstop drying. It just lives in my Sunlu dryer and I never turn it off. The filament only cools momentarily on the way to the printer’s bowden tube. At the end of a print, I unload the filament and spool it right back into the 70 C dryer (still running). I suspect PVA starts to rehydrate very rapidly at room temp, so even an hour out of the dryer (or in a dry box) and the print quality starts to degrade.

For print settings, I am using normal support, but greatly bulking out the support matrix by lowering the “Base pattern spacing (currently 2mm)” and turning up the “initial layer expansion (currently 8mm)” and the “normal support expansion (currently 5mm)”. Also set Top, Bottom, and XY distances to zero. I also increased the PLA print temp to 230 and the PVA print temp to 245. My last print went very well, but I continue to tweak. I would post photos of all of this, but the interface won’t allow me to do so (just throws an error messages saying I can’t embed media)

Someone mentioned ruining High flow nozzles with PVA, I probably wouldn’t recommend risking those. I doubt they would offer any benefit as PVA is kind of a slow printing material.

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You should absolutely be concerned. If you actually bothered watching the video, he does try several materials and all of them failed. It looks like an optimization issue with the switching.

Certainly I wouldn’t dismiss it as nothing.

Right off the bat I can tell the support interface material was changed but the Z distance wasn’t set to zero. This was changed automatically in older versions of the slicer, but that was changed several versions ago for some reason.

However, a clear distinction must be made: Most of the people complaining on the forums and in the videos have years of experience and several devices at home. These people know that you need experience, and there is no shortage of it. After all, we’re not talking about a bunch of newly opened reddit accounts spewing a few novice mistakes into the void. You can also tell the level of knowledge by the fact that the problems can be described in detail with existing basic knowledge.

These people realise that you need to be able to do basic things like adjust or repair. However, of course, everyone wants a device at this premium price, as well as the premium filament from bamub, to simply work.

Some see it as a nice toy, but there are enough people who want to use it for work. To make money or to use it for important projects. You just have to differentiate in the discussion. Therefore, everyone should be extremely careful with such blanket statements, as it is not a lack of knowledge. It is rightly criticized. You’ll also notice that most people don’t tell you not to buy the printer at all, but to wait, this must also be taken into account in a reasonable discussion.

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Fair enough. No offense meant.