At least in the USA, unilateral modification clauses in TOS are considered “illusory and unenforceable” per many court cases. Lowes, Blockbuster…google it.
1 Like
I’m not going to argue.
Just read the new update.
Well, I believe the only reason BambuLab may have originally thought they can get away with this move is that they think their main target market comprises of people with little competence in computer security. Or they did not know any better.
I want my printer to keep working in LAN-only mode without internet access, and I would like to keep being able to install firmware updates. Currently, the most promising path to that end is to counter misguided propaganda that the move by BambuLab, which worsens security, is in some way shape or form good or even necessary for security.
I do not want to do this, I do however want my printer to work the way it was advertised.
Well, the new update is a significant improvement along the key aspects that are most important to me. The new update also seems to contradict your earlier communicated stance in these threads, which was that BambuLab does not care about user feedback or choice. It seems the opposite is the case, which is consistent with how they appear to have operated in the past. This was a key factor in my decision to purchase one of their printers despite the proprietary approach.
However, a key issue, which is that Bambu Connect does not actually enhance security, remains. To actually be a meaningful security feature, the printer would need to store the user’s public key, not the one of BambuLab, where they ship the private key to users, embedded into the Bambu Connect app.
There is also no reason to withhold the ability to use security keys from people who want to use third-party slicers.
Let me also clarify my stance on the points they identified as misinformation:
- Bambu Lab will remotely disable your printer (“brick” it).
- Firmware updates will block your printer’s ability to print.
- The printers have a timed killswitch that disables them after a certain period.
I think they were indeed always clear that SD-card printing will keep working, just not LAN-only or cloud mode, but also consider my response below to the last three points.
- Bambu Lab firmware contains trojans or backdoors for unauthorized remote control.
This I think is indeed false. I do think any trojans or backdoors in the firmware are authorized by BambuLab, by definition. There does seem to be an authorized backdoor in the current implementation though, as it appears a key-pair centrally generated by BambuLab and shared among all users, is used for authorization. If there is no way to shut out BambuLab, that is a backdoor. As it appears the private key is easily recovered from Bambu Connect, this backdoor is also immediately accessible to bad actors.
- AMS functionality will be restricted, and the use of third-party filament will be disabled.
- All 3D files printed are monitored, duplicated, or stolen.
- A subscription will be mandatory to use your printer.
To the extent I take such claims seriously, this is just as an example of what a mandated cloud connection could mean in the future. An important part of a secure system is that the security of users cannot be compromised by the manufacturer, should the manufacturer become compromised. (For example because the company is sold.)
And is the tactic Makerbot used that killed their sales. Watch the post with Uncle Jessy’s video I posted.
For this ■■■■ is a headache.
Bambu “cares” only to clarify. The only thing all this hubbub did was elicit that clarification.
I appreciate you listing your grievances to me but I don’t care what it is you or anyone else wants. I can do nothing about it.
What I have been trying to say, again, is that this was not a secret, that you agreed to it, and not a “victim”.
Please, if you still have to pontificate and claim you’ve been cheated then do so. Just know deep down that you weren’t.
Either way, banging my head against this has become useless. No one wants to admit they agreed to it with the ToS and accept some responsibility for feeling the way they do.
No one was duped.
No one was forced.
Everyone had warning.
Just because they told you they’d kick you in the nuts and hadn’t yet doesn’t mean you should be surprised when they do.
This such an odd take in a world where ToS are as unenforceable as they are. It is physically impossible to read all of the ToS that are involved in an ordinary life in the developed world. The terms they include in civilised countries (notably not including the US) pretty much universally fall into ‘things that were already part of standard consumer law’, and ‘things that are prohibited from having any legal effect because of standard consumer law’.
I don’t agree to any ToS. Because I don’t bother to read any ToS. Because the legal relationship between a consumer and a company providing goods or services is not up to the company to decide, nor up to me to agree to.
I bought a product that was advertised as “just works” with a “LAN-only mode”.
If you are advertising your product as “just works”, that’s simply what you open yourself up to. No additional “understanding” should be required. At that point I’d rather just get a DIY open source printer. It’s much more fun than dealing with legal technicalities.
You ascribe a sort of importance to TOS that just does not exist in the jurisdiction I live in.
No, but I was not even aware that 3rd party products are superior to the 1st party ones when I got my printer a couple weeks ago. To a user, the point of tight integration kind of seems to be to maximize quality.
What the TOS allows them to do vs what they actually do out of a good sense of business are different things. Also TOS are not law. I do however expect companies to conform with existing laws and regulations, no matter what their TOS states.
I do not care about 1st vs 3rd party, only about the printer working flawlessly. Otherwise I would have gone with some DIY kit.
This is nonsense. Bambu Lab are fully responsible for their own actions. TOS do not restrict Bambu Lab at all in the first place. It is therefore logically immaterial what the TOS state. I am pretty sure that TOS also do not state I may not complain if Bambu Lab behaves badly (which would not be enforceable anyway, btw).
Of course I feel bad about my own decisions as well. I am taking responsibility for being duped and having given Bambu Lab money by spending my time here to lobby for a better way forward.
I do however not understand what your motivation is for elevating TOS to gospel.
1 Like
I said that to him earlier and just got an “I’m not going to argue”
We have numerous examples of case law and plenty of consumer protection agencies that simply will continue to operate even if he wants to be wrong I guess.
2 Likes
Look, ToS exists Read or not read.
If your country doesn’t enforce them then take BL to court.
Be certain. To say you didn’t agree isn’t true. You did, even if you didn’t read them. Couldn’t use the machine if you hadn’t.
I do have to laugh at the reasoning for not reading is because they’re too long.
Where are you located. I’d like to investigate the ToS enforcement in your area. If I’m wrong I’ll admit as much. However you did agree, enforceable or not.
As to me not wanting to argue, I’m one person and getting chewed on because I don’t agree. Haven’t called anyone names yet I’ve been called a shill, devil, etc. I don’t like abandoning civil discussions. So forgive me for not bending to someone’s will when the same argument and misunderstanding keeps popping up.
1 Like
A few years ago, adobe made photoshop a subscription service. More recently, autodesk did similar with fusion. If you are a company, it is good to get regular income. It is better if you can gain access to customers work, and monetise whatever you can. That is the way it has gone virtually for everything. A lot more folk rent accommodation, more or less rent their food (i.e buy ready meals/takeaways (instead of a sack of potatoes/other veg.), lease their cars, hire wedding dresses/whatever, use credit cards, and so on. They do not own things, for many reasons. That is the way it is. BBL is just another brick in the wall, so to speak. Too late now to reverse the trend, (although a few are trying). We’ve all let it happen by being distracted by facebook, tictoc, computer games and the like. Makers world, Thingiverse and so on, is like that mindless chit chat. It is merely entertainment, but with a physical reality that ends up as landfill, in most cases.
As I, and others, have mentioned, If you have a 3d printing business, then you should not be relying solely on a cloud service, but I expect you can look forward to an alternative controller/firmware being developed by a third party, which will happen if the problem is big enough and worth solving. There are now plenty of more open source printers around, as capable as bbl, which you may find adequate for your purposes.
Like I said…maybe read the ONE sentence before declaring everyone else wrong and attacking you.
1 Like
I give up. You win.
This isn’t worth smacking my head against.
To be clear, I don’t believe you’re correct. What BL has done MAY not fall under what you think it does. But go on.
You’re right, I’m wrong, good luck in your fight.
Feel better?
lmao I never felt bad, I guess if anything I’m confused why you don’t get the point. Literally go read any of the court cases, it ain’t complex. Companies are using “illusory language” for anything that states they have full control over changes fundamental to the use of something they have sold to a consumer, TOS stating it or not.
1 Like
Yeah, right. That’s what happened.
Actually you had been implied to be a “devil’s advocate”, not a “devil”, which I think is a charitable interpretation of your behavior.
Hell of a statement while declaring willful ignorance. You MAY say anything is true with that kind of nonsense.
2 Likes
Ok, let’s try this then.
Cite the specific court case, citation, law that applies to this exact situation.
The same holds true for you bud. Saying ToS doesn’t apply is all well and good until you prove it.
I don’t mean cite a case that is similar. You need to point me to the case that addresses this exact issue. Don’t just state that it is unenforceable in the US, provide fact to back that up.
2 Likes
Under contract law the notion that is being discussed here falls under The legal principle that protects consumers from having the terms of sale changed after the sale is the doctrine of contract modification, which requires mutual consent from all parties for any changes to be valid. Unilateral modifications without the consumer’s agreement are generally unenforceable.
There is ample case-law that supports this but here are 3 cases that I recall where it didn’t even get to court once the saber rattling started. All these were TOS changes after the fact. There are countless more some going back to the 1980s where American Airlines tried to renege on Lifetime Gold status for their frequent flier program and got their ass handed to them in court. This is by far not a new issue.
| Company | Incident Description | URL |
|---|---|---|
| In 2012, Instagram announced changes to its Terms of Service that would allow the company to use users’ photos in advertisements without compensation. Following public backlash, Instagram reverted to its original terms. | After Backlash, Instagram Changes Back To Original Terms Of Service | |
| Zappos | In 2012, Zappos included a clause in its Terms of Service that permitted unilateral amendments without user consent. A court ruled this provision unenforceable, prompting Zappos to modify its terms. | How Zappos' User Agreement Failed In Court and Left Zappos Legally Naked |
| Disney | In 2024, Disney attempted to dismiss a wrongful death lawsuit by citing arbitration clauses in the Terms of Service of its services. Public outcry ensued, leading Disney to withdraw its motion. | https://www.reuters.com/legal/disney-agrees-have-florida-wrongful-death-lawsuit-decided-court-2024-08-20/ |
I’m not saying that Bambu’s egregious actions rise to the level of someone losing their life as was the case in Disney but we are talking about financial harm.
Legal Definition of Fraud isn’t the lie itself, it’s defined as the financial damages that occur as a result of a lie or misrepresentation.
There is ample evidence that Bambu deceived it’s customers. I for one decided to purchase my P1P only after LAN mode was made available and that was almost two years ago.
You’re hanging onto the notion that TOS is fluid when this is not part of TOS. There is no ongoing contract or service provided outside of MakerWorld. Instead, this principle is based on property rights. Title passed to me once the product was received and I activated it. The seller does not have the right to withdraw product features after the sale unless ordered by a court of law or statute. Can we say any of this applies here?
7 Likes
Thanks @ChrisPR1 for the link to the update.
A few things are still unclear to me.
In LAN mode
- Why does OrcaSlicer additionally needs to talk to the new BambuConnect component, and therefore need an additional dependency? (The Network-Plugin has also Authorization Control in its box…?)
- The Integration Demo is still a degradation to how the integration in OrcaSlicer currently works: There is no view of the camera any more? Is this something that will come to BambuConnect in the future? Or is it still possible to use the existing Network Plugin integration in OrcaSlicer with the printer set to developer mode?
- Will there be a Linux version of BambuConnect? Or are OrcaSlicer users on Linux out of luck…?
1 Like
I mostly use OrcaSlicer and there are some settings that are not available in Bambu Studio. It appears that OrcaSlicer will still work when it makes use of the API middleman, hopefully it works well in that case. If I can’t use OrcaSlicer anymore I would definitely be annoyed, but it would not cause me to want to sell my printer and buy something else.
I am preparing some files for MakerWorld and have noticed a few things I can’t do because I am using Bambu Studio. Some have had a mildly negative effect on the print, but I wouldn’t consider any a dealbreaker.
I am wondering what settings in OrcaSlicer that Bambu Studio doesn’t have that are causing people to want to stop using the printer if they can’t use OrcaSlicer anymore?