I’ve never seen anyone saying you need to wear a respirator and gloves handling Carbon Fiber and Glass Fiber filaments. Are prints made with PAHT-CF, PLA-CF, and ABS-GF dangerous to handle? If so, don’t we need huge warnings on the product pages?
Hoping someone will have some more insight on this.
Edit* on the PAHT-CF product page it shows someone breaking a part with bare hands, is this safe?
Edit2* The MSDS document linked on the page for PAHT-CF claims that “it is not necessary to use protective equipment under normal use conditions.” Just want to verify this is true.
Here’s the thing though.
SANDING down, cnc cutting or grinding CF is bad as CF dust is released. My understanding is that its the DUST when inhaled that is really bad.
Filament on the other hand, even with those little fiber bits, are larger particles. I’d wager that its maybe as bad as handling carbon fiber panels that have been broken (you’d also get little bits of fibers on your hands).
Keen to see a more conclusive study on this though.
The filaments and prints are safe if used as directed.
The fillings won’t just break free and contaminate the air your breathe…
Think about it: They are bonded with plastic…
Machining them, sanding or filing is a different story.
But then again: Inhaling or ingesting microplastics isn’t anywhere near healthy either…
Especially if you never really not what went into the formulation to begin with.
Despite the obvious fibre filaments and their prints are still subject to the same rules that apply to anything else these days…
If in doubt why risk it and not just expect the worst and act accordingly ?
I can assure that you won’t be harmed by wearing a well fitted P2 marks or dedicated respirator with a filter can while working hard on your prints…
There is no risk either wearing proper gloves when using solvents and such…
The question you should be asking is how much risk are YOU willing to take and how much common sense are you willing to apply?
Ok, two questions but you get the idea here.
In theory those fibres should still be bonded to plastic but sanding and such creates particles on unknown sizes.
It does make sense to give fibre prints a coating like you would do in the real world as well to protect them.
Did you never wonder why filament manufacturers won’t really state the particle sizes or fibre lengths used ?
I tend to agree with the other posters - likely not much of an issue until you saw, drill, sand, or do other machining or similar operations that could release dust.
Important to remember the filament handling path too. There is rubbing, friction, and dust generated along the filament path. Appropriate care should be used when cleaning that. Using lungs to blow dust is a great way to get a puff of carbon fiber dust.
Not to be alarmist but carbon fiber bits could be similar to asbestos in irritating lung tissue and causing other issues. Without formal guidance it’s always better to be overly cautious than to find out later you weren’t careful enough.
The video I linked seems to show that the fibers really aren’t bonded to the polymer that well (or at all?), since they appear to fall off or imbed in the skin with light touching. I think it may be more accurate to say they’re encased in the polymer and that any which are not fully encased may shed freely.
NathanBuildsRobots is an alarmest, drama seeking, attention seeking, ■■■■ stirring joke.
He hates Bambu, was got caught up in the 3D Musketeers false hacking of a X1 fiasco, whines about Bambu telling him to get lost when he stirs all that ■■■■, and I don’t believe he’s anywhere near trustworthy. Also a Creality/Prusa fanboy.
No, I’ve used all the filled filaments and not had any issues.
Very much an alarmist/clickbait practitioner who really loves to twist facts in my opinion. I did see the video in case there was something akin to scientific evidence apart from his microscope (he should’ve had a labcoat on). Nope…
I’m of the opinion its like many things, if you can’t find hard evidence (factual) most the things you see on the internet and has spurious data to back it up. I took a quick “goodle” around and came up with a number of University and Medical information sheets that warn about dust but only to the extent of it being a dust hazard. Wearing PPE is always recommended but its not asbestos or lead paint in my opinion.
Glad I’m not the only one with that opinion of NathanBuildsRobots.
I saw his review of the A1, and the whole thing was pretty much yeah but everyone else does the same. Then he had a review of new Ender and pretty much praised it front to back.
When I first watched that review, I thought okay, being tough but real. By the end though, and then with the context of that Ender review, It just made me realize how bias his review of the A1 was. It’s disingenuously presented.
I mean, he’s semi-praising the FLSUN S1, his thumbnail for it proudly exclaims that Bambu is Obsolete! I was super excited for that printer, but it’s been concerning seeing what the reviews have said on it. For him to turn and push a fluff piece like that further makes me question his motives.
I can accept opinions that differ from mine. Spent all of high school like that. However he’s just a contrarian. He’ll hate whatever is popular and not feeding his ego/pockets. Call him out and he plays the victim.
These comments went exactly how I thought they would. Depends on what the part is being used for. If its for something that may get worn/sanded down over time, it will create dust. Same as the carbon rails.
Honestly though, all filaments release toxic fumes, I find it amazing that they arent required to have real filtration and seals. I run an air filter right next to my printers but I can still smell it, which means im still breathing it. A while ago, someone posted all the toxins that are released from each type of filament and even PLA was bad. Gets worse when you run at the max temps, like bambu does.
Totally, it belongs on facebook. I think we miss the bigger issue the heating of the resins and other unknown additives, plastics/fibres are in our world most days and pinpointing risk areas is pretty hard. Focussing on our hobby is naturally going to be a no-brainer as I reckon the processes involved are pretty industrial. I think everyone needs to do their own research and take a minute to read MSDS information, sometimes that can be scary.
I am printing a lot of ABS/PA/PETG and derivatives these days and have sealed up my X1 which sits next to me on the desk. The Mini behind me is the one I smell the most, I miss the old workhorse ender I had as it was happy to print all day in a tent enclosure. The stuff gives me headaches some days.
I tired to find some actual data on the hazards of fibre filaments.
The first load I found and checked was exactly what I expected:
People with no clue about the things they talk about having a rant on the dangers of fibre filled filaments.
While there were some more considerate people limiting their rant on the dangers to what happens AFTER the printing, many seem to think fibre filaments are even more deadly than using an orbital sander on asbestos sheets ROFL
With some searching I found some nice videos on posts from reputable people that also do an awful lot of printing.
One guy pointed a very interesting aspect out - the print temps affecting the filament properties.
Overheated filament can turn rather hard and brittle - in return this adds to the problems when sanding and machining fibre filled plastics.
The guy also tortured filament in order to check whether or not the fillings are just loose or bonded - they are bonded with the plastic.
Problem starts during printing as many of the filling materials have a rather weak bond.
This results in those fibres or micro-particles added no longer having the bond with the filament they had on the roll.
Still: He could no find any evidence of shedding, dusting or such for printed parts.
All actual problems only ever arise from sanding, machining, drilling and such - as with ALL related plastics be it printed or not.
Last but no least I thought the manufacturing industry should be able to provide some conclusive enough answers…
Seems we all like to forget that most plastic parts are not printed, they are extruded into a mould or blown into shape.
Hazards to avoid in the industry:
Static electricity when handling the granules…
Excessive movements of the granules, like no vibration feeders and such…
Insufficient ventilation - those granules give up fumes and dust when the bags are opened and handled…
Funny enough though I could not find anything SPECIFIC to fibre enforced plastics other than the abrasive properties being a concern for extra maintenance.
Fibre filled plastics seem to be of really no concern in the industry for their fibres…
Things get really interesting once we check on the hazards of working fibre plastics or just using them.
Take the old time favourite GF infused ABS mixes - they were and still are widely used for tools, camping furniture and what not.
Ever seem them WELL aged ?
Especially on flat, black parts we can see those glass fibres - they sparkle in the reflected light…
If you a cotton ball on such aged plastic it feels very rough despite the smooth looking surface - the glass fibres poking out of the surface.
Same if true for ALL fibre filled or infused plastics…
For carbon fibres the problem is that unlike glass they love to break easy.
Those glass fibres are very flexible, carbon very brittle.
On the machining/sanding side of things this means we not only deal with plastic particles and dust but also with fibre dust and particles.
The industry recommendations state to either use a liquid to take the dust and fibres or to use a forced ventilation system that captures all dust.
But these measures are only partially directed at the hazards of the fibres.
Neither GF nor CF are classified as lung risk like ceramic fibres or silica.
That is because their structure does not cause the bad health affects that would allow them to stay lodged in the tissue forever.
The reason for the recommendations is the increased awareness in regards to microplastics…
So, can we keep using GF and CF filaments?
We can…
So, should we be worried when using them?
Nope, the risks are the same as for unfilled filament of the same type…
So, should I use precautions, PPE or such when abusing printed parts with tools, sandpaper or worse?
You certainly SHOULD!
Let me try to ‘visualise’ the last one for you:
Ever used an angle grinder or such to clean up some rusty steel?
If you did and even if it was a lot of work you probably did not bother with a mask, let alone respirator.
What again you said was the purpose of those warning labels and pictograms showing someone wearing them and googles ?
Anyway: Once time for the shower at the end of the day, what colour was this cr@p you had to dig out of your nose in order to breathe properly again ?
Jokes aside though:
What happens to your nose when using a grinder but not the brain is the same that happens when working on printed plastic.
Unless you PREVENT the dust and particles getting in your airways and skin they will find a way to reach them.
So, just use this forgotten thing between your ears
You wouldn’t want to breathe in chilli powder or toner for your other printer…
You won’t dig out the bucket on your Dyson with your hands to end up covered all over…
Why then do you have no issues or concerns when sanding your printed parts?
Probably with a drink and snack right next to them…
Just saying…
Yes, my PA12-CF parts, if coming in touch with humans, are always covered - I developed simple methodology of using clear coat and making top softer TPU layer enclosing CF parts.
Reason: it can make carbon splinters and in any way, PA12-CF is a bit werid to touch.
If handled well it is not dangerous, but you should consider ventilation and definitely use protective gear. Single use gloves, covid stocked facemasks,.protective glasses and air.
Said a bit coarsely but absolutely correct, @StreetSports.
Thing is, effects from chemical exposures can take years to decades to appear and can be catastrophic. Similarly, consequences from breathing shards of carbon fiber could also take years to appear - but carbon fiber has attracted attention because it’s being used more and more workers are being exposed to dust.
“The huge increase in numbers of people working with the material has spawned a massive research drive that is trying to figure out the potential risks. However, there’s a growing number of researchers that think carbon fibre could be “the new asbestos”.”
Carbon fibers have some characteristics similar to asbestos and may or may not cause similar conditions. Scientists see so many similarities, though, that they anticipate there will be effects. Carbon fiber is being used everywhere just like asbestos was until people started having debilitating lung issues. The jury seems to be still out but it is being looked at.
When I was young and worked on car and lawn mowers, I’d wash parts in gasoline. Everybody did. But gas has a large percentage of benzene (a known carcinogen) in it and even the fumes are bad to breathe. There’s all sorts of other things that contribute to our chemical background and we frequently only find out things are bad after many years.
It’s always a good plan to limit exposures to unknown dangers. People are certainly free to do as they please - it’s their body and their life. But there is absolutely good reason now to protect yourself around carbon fibers. And chemical odors.
Guess I have a dead nose.
I have sealed my P1S, for the most part, and I do run a bento box and a filter on the exhaust. When printing ABS neither my wife nor I can smell it unless we press our noses against the small gap in the door.
That being said I don’t deny there may be something in the air, why else would I have those filters?
I also have 2 Blue Air air purifiers and one Dyson. I have detectors beside and below (space constraints) and neither have ever lit up over VOC. I get a daily/weekly/monthy report, all is as well as expected. I have all of this because we live in a basement apartment and I worry about mold and mildew.
I see this converstation come up over and over. Admittedly there’s not enough (as far as I’m concerned) to scream “All is well” or “Doom! Doom!”. Just some people care or are more sensitive than others. I’m not sensitive. Used to smoke, drank water out of a hose, grew up arouned lead paint, and cleaned paint brushes with gas. Not worried.
Now if you are, kudos, I’ll try and respect your opinion and your right to have it. Don’t call me dumb because I’m not of like mind though, or I’ll make you sit with the vegans at Thanksgiving.
I dont think youre dumb. I think you agree and thats why you sealed your printer up, use a bento box, case filter and multiple other filters and sensors.
Honestly I’m more concerned about mold.
I get amused sometimes at the concern about 3D printing. There are far more hazards floating around in the air when we go out, more than what these things put out. Far more things to be concerned about within the enviorment.
But like I said, if you’re conerned then pay attention to it.
I wil get my panties in a bunch when a hack like NBR plays the alarmest for clicks, never having anything to back it up. Cause then your fears and concerns are exploited for chuckles and sponser bucks.
I think youre also extremely concerned, based on all the precautions you took. I may be wrong, but I doubt you bring all those filters to the store with you.
(he should’ve had a labcoat on). Nope…