I don’t normally wade into politics on a forum, but I feel like I should raise awareness to this emerging concern.
New York sate (my home state) is starting to push this bill.
If this passes, it will start spreading to other states and I could see it going federal in the future.
I think we (the 3D printing community) need to make our voices heard.
I vehemently oppose this invasive and reactive bill.
They should ban 3D printed weapons, not restrict innocent tools that COULD be used in the manufacture.
I see nothing “picking on” CNC machines that could be used to produce “actual” firearms, just a knee jerk reaction to the growing popularity of FDM.
Maybe not this year… But you guys have to understand that there are unintended consequences whenever a new law is approved. Always. It is legal in all 50 states to build your own gun. Rifle, shotgun, pistol. There are laws on the books already that require you to insert a piece of metal in any plastic frame in order to make it show up to a Xray machine. Not trying to push any agenda, but yep, pass a law and impact folks you didn’t intend to.
In New York State, both the Senate and Assembly must pass a bill before the Governor can consider it for signature (approval) or veto (rejection). S8586 is an identical version of A8132 in the Senate. Experienced observers know that a bill with a “same as” in the alternate house is an important early sign that a bill could pass both the Senate and Assembly. It indicates that individual lawmakers in each house are supportive of the bill.
What Happens Next:
The committee may amend the bill to satisfy concerns of committee members, leave it as is, or refer it to another committee for further deliberation. The bill may be reported to the full Senate chamber for consideration if a majority share of the committee members support it. If a bill has not been addressed by the committee by the end of the two-year legislative term, the bill is said to have ‘died in committee’.
What Can I Do?
You can subscribe to email alerts for S8586 at the following URL: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2023/S8586. Additionally, all members of the Senate welcome legislative feedback from constituents at nysenate.gov. When you use the New York State Senate website to officially support or oppose this bill, your feedback will be shared directly with your senator.
The key wording here:
Experienced observers know that a bill with a “same as” in the alternate house is an important early sign that a bill could pass both the Senate and Assembly. It indicates that individual lawmakers in each house are supportive of the bill.
I hope you’re right about it not going anywhere, but it sounds like it may be creeping toward a vote.
You have to see the reach of this forum - even Makerworld if you look at the parts with max. download, it`s somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
I’ve already touched on this topic somewhere else in this forum and one thing is sure: ones in a lifetime something will come - even in Switzerland, discussions are rising, People were arrested.
On the other hand, who should be afraid of submitting a criminal record? Or who needs to worry about a criminal background check? Are you really afraid that you won’t be able to get a 3D printer anymore if that comes through? If so, I’ll more worried after answering you than I would get nervus to get no more 3D printers
P.S. Even water guns should at least be printed transparently… and even then, don’t run around playing with them in public. That may could call the police on the scene and if they don’t clearly perceive it as a toy, it could end up badly.
Just like everything else in the Anti-2A arena, this will come at a cost to the buyer. Will an additional $10 - $20 in fees along with any delays the state feels is needed, be OK in your view?
Also, its not uncommon for the reports to show errors that deny people that shouldn’t be denied. Now you would be in the bureaucratic two step to find and fix an issue that isn’t your fault.
It will definitely make it to a vote, if not pass fairly quickly. The targeted supporter isn’t a into 3D printing or 2A rights, and I’d assume there will be plenty of people in that targeted audience who just don’t understand or care why they should oppose it.
Well, I don’t live in the USA, I`m Swiss. Carrying an army-capable strum rifle is permitted from the age of 15. Every 15-year-old who wants a rifle gets one on loan, for free (after being checked, of course) - and this is the official army weapon with which almost every Swiss practices over a firing distance of 300m. You can find the shooting range over 300m in every village, even if there are only 800 people living in this village. Of course, Swiss citizens male (without any exceptions) is tested for their ability to handle firearms (drafting for military service is mandatory for us). And every Swiss is primarily required to carry weapons and receive the obligatory military training.
A weapon is a weapon. Even if it just represents a weapon it is no longer a toy. … If people not trained in the use and understanding of weapons and if $10-20 make that clear to people that it is not only a toy, then yes.
In Switzerland, Swiss citizens have the final say - because the Swiss people are also the Swiss army.
He is very famous in the history of firearms design. He was a British man, who around the 1990s, built a submachine gun (a fully automatic weapon using pistol cartridges) entirely in a home workship in the UK, using, and here is the important thing “no firearm parts”. No part that was ever designed for a firearm was used. Just basic metalworking was involved. (I’m not sure if he manufactured ammunition or not, but it’s not relevant to the legal issue of construction of a firearm itself).
It was a famous case in British law, as their government claimed firearms were complex to produce and therefore background checks and bans could prevent their construction. However they were forced to admit this was nonsense after they examined and tested Luty’s SMGs.
His weapons are now in the Royal Armouries museum in Leeds, England.
They’ll never legislate against stupidity so prepare for more rubbish from the top end of town. I fail to see how they intend to police what happens to the printer when it lands in the “Approved” owners abode, are you going to keep it locked up and only allowed to run it with Government approved monitoring software that flags you the instant you print something notorious? FMD…
That is one of my concerns if they pass this legislation. First will be having to apply for a license to own a 3D printer. And then they will want to monitor what you’re printing.
Just more erosion of privacy and having to ask permission for everything we do.
I don’t own a gun and have never had an urge to print one.
Why attack a tool that can could be used to manufacture a very poor firearm but ignore the tools that could make a very uselful one?
I don’t believe that “What does one have to hide if one is innocent?” is the point. Aren’t we in a society that states that “One is innocent until proven guilty”
The issue here is the blatant overreach of government in violation of the 4th amendment guaranteeing the right against illegal search and seizure. All western democracies have this protection. Except in practice, that’s often not true as the linked article below illustrates.
To give a simple example of how this works to violate one’s rights: when my dad was a cop in New York State, he used to tell us stories where if a guy in a car didn’t look ‘just right’, Police would pull him over for a license plate violation, just like this Iowa kid was pulled over for having his bright lights on. In New York State back in the day, there was an unenforced law that you had to keep your license plate clean. The only time it was enforced is when the cops wanted to perform an illegal search.
So let’s paint this scenario:
You have a 3D printer, and now you have to register yourself as an owner of a 3D printer. Who’s going to protect you from some overzealous law enforcement individual securing a search warrant and enter your home because someone used a 3D-printed bump stock in your town? Not even the NRA will be there for you because they only protect registered gun owners. This kind of law allows for this to happen.
What is rarely discussed in public spaces is that a police officer doesn’t need proof that a crime was committed; they only need reasonable suspicion. It’s up to the judge and jury to decide guilt. The so-called ‘proof of innocence’ in a society of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ does not come free; it can cost anywhere from $10,000 to over $100,000 in legal fees to get one’s day in court.
Oh, because nothing says ‘guilty’ like owning a 3D printer, right? I mean, who wouldn’t want to be part of a suspect pool just because they have the amazing ability to print a Benchy?
In Australia we have it pretty good, but still suffer the overreach into our personal lives. I have no criminal history and have very little to hide, but don’t fall for that line “you got nothing to hide…” and am not naive in the belief that they won’t stitch me up if I fit the criteria for a given crime.
Maybe they should just make people get a background check to purchase high strength, high impact plastics instead. Wouldn’t that keep people from printing useable firearms?
Limit the purchase of certain filaments to 100g or less.
Or maybe that will come next.
Actually, I would not oppose any legislation that tracks materials that can be used in the commission of a crime. For example, small quantities of radioactive elements are in every smoke detector, but someone who purchases bulk smoke detectors who is not a retailer? Yes, that should be monitored. Or let’s take Ammonium Nitrate as an example. Its legitimate use by farmers is for fertilizer, yet mix it with diesel also legitimately used by farmers, and you have an industrial-grade explosive, as Timothy McVeigh demonstrated in the Oklahoma City Bombing.
If the government wanted to track let’s say large volume purchases of certain filaments, that I can get behind. I can’t support the broad spectrum of registering a piece of home IT equipment just “because”.
The fee is not to encourage or enhance training. The fee is a deterrent. The politicians don’t want to train people. They couldn’t care less if the person was trained or not. Firearms are a political tool in the US. Quite simply, those opposing firearms are not doing this to avoid incompetence.
In all honesty, the legislation is totally useless. They aren’t going to regulate 3D printer components and its quite easy to make one of those if you want to (Vorons or even pieced together bed slingers). The kinematics and electronics are pretty simple and take little to no learning to figure it out (an hour or two on YouTube). Vorons can get a little tricky due to their features but something like an Ender 3 would go together like Lego. Even the off the shelf control boards come pre-configured for the most part.
Again, this is simply a political tool to advance an agenda that will make virtually ZERO difference in the expected outcome. Those that want to illegally print a firearm will still be able to print a firearm.
The really funny thing (mentioned earlier in the thread), it’s not even illegal to manufacture your own firearms. It’s been legal for as long as I can remember. There are rules and limits, but it’s always been accepted. I guess the thought is… now, that anyone can potentially do it, we need to regulate it. But firearms are based on 700-year-old technology, so it’s not like figuring out how to do it is that difficult even if you didn’t have the file to print. Simply, we are not talking about rocket science. This genie is well out of the bottle.
What about the smart kid that wants to explore robotics or engineering?
She applies for 3D printing license so she can buy her first 3D printer to pursue her dreams. Her application gets rejected because her father who lives with her and provides for his family gets flagged as having a criminal record.
He made some stupid choices when he was young, was with the wrong people in the wrong place, yet paid his debt to society. He’s doing “the right thing” yet his child is getting punished for the sins of his past.
Do they not see how this could affect kids too?
Unfortunately, your suggested scenario is almost guaranteed to occur. Not to mention someone can get red flagged as retaliation and be delayed or denied until they prove themselves worthy. This legislation a slippery slope.
On my flight to Urumuchi China it was not allowed to my bringing my hand luggage into the Airplain cabin. The extendable aluminum handle was classified as a weapon.
It was absolutely incomprehensible to me because the cabin suitcase had already been on more than 500 flights and was from the Tumi brand - a brand that is, firstly, anything but not cheap and secondly, specializes in flight luggage. Even on a flight after “911” - the suitcase went on a flight to New York without any problems.
Protecting my head but agreeing, I gave up the handshake and didn’t take him into the cabin - after 2 months (without incidents and peacefully) in Urumiuchi, I realized that the airline was right, in this zone it is a weapon…
Again, on the topic: sometimes you don’t have to understand it to make sense and better is always possible, but there are 1000 times more ways to make it even worse…People who want to find ways will always find them also for buying a 3D printer - Weapons are not dangerous, the person behind the weapon can become dangerous.
I used to fly drones. The same thing happened there. They made up rules for weight limits, licences and remote ID for drones. They implemented them slowly step by step by step until it is now no fun anymore to fly drones.
Drones never caused any major problems in the first place so that was not the reason the rules were implemented.
Same will happen in 3D printing… Slowly owning a 3D printer will be made less easy and less atractive by implementing lots of silly rules in the name of “public safety”. Western governments are afraid of their citizens…
