Call for Bambu Cloud to be Open Sourced

Bambu Lab X1 Series General discussions
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Good Morning everyone.

TLDR: BL should release their cloud server code to the open source community so that it can ultimately be spun up locally for true developer mode.

Note: This post exists in a thread of another topic, but it seems mentioning it gets it deleted from other topics. So here it is as its own topic

The topic around the new Security features being implemented by Bambu Labs is pretty volatile and all comes down to trust. Bambu Labs seem to have lost the trust of a reasonable proportion of their community.

I think what the changes have highlighted to the community, in one respect, is exactly how much reliance there is on “cloud” for Bambu’s nice features. With the original security concerns being raised around how their servers are getting hammered, and subsequently the details of exactly what will and won’t work when disconnected from their servers, people are getting nervous.

Adding on to that, when these same people see the way BL are talking around themselves and not everything is lining up, I see people worrying over what other things BL can do to the printers that were purchased and are in use.

BL’s later announcements of “Developer” (or - enhanced LAN) mode seems like an interesting step forward to try and appease their community - however I don’t actually think it goes far enough.

I personally would feel a lot more comfortable if I had the features that the printer(s) are known for as well as the security I am in control of. By that, I mean I don’t like having a gateway in front of my devices that I cannot at least bypass, let alone control. The manufacturer of a device should not dictate to me how and when I can use that device. It’s mine, I bought it.

To get around this, I would really like to see “Developer” mode talk to a server that I control. By releasing (at least a community edition) of the backend server code that I can read, approve and spin up in my own infrastructure, I would then be in complete control of what happens with my printer. I can enable the features I want on the server. By being completely open and community led, this resolves both the trust issues surrounding cloud control as well as the security issues highlighted by BL as their servers are no longer in the picture for those who want to run everything locally in true developer mode.

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I snort laughed when I read this. That doesn’t happen often, so congratulations.

You just asked them to open source one of their primary money makers. :man_facepalming:

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You just asked them to open source one of their primary money makers. :man_facepalming:

Not really, their primary money maker is the hardware. Their USP is how it’s easy to use. I’m asking them to reconsider their “Apple” approach to open the code that enables the bells and whistles that people buy the printer for, so that it can be 1) vetted and 2) installed locally.

So if they were to so decide, a “community edition” of their cloud software would allow for true “developer mode” which, among other things, would shift support to the community for issues surrounding its use and keep the doors open for tinkerers and those unhappy with the current situation to buy their printers and anything else they want from BL.

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This is… not a good idea for a myriad of reasons:

  1. BambuLab has said multiple times that they have no intention to open-source anything that they don’t have to (because of libraries they use and their restrictive licenses)
  2. The ‘cloud’ is the problem - why would you want the convoluted way of printing things in the first place?
  3. There is nothing that the cloud enables that cannot be achieved without the cloud, even at this point, let alone if it was properly implemented (I have my camera feed and I can control my printers remotely even tho they are in a LAN-only mode, on a VLAN with no other WAN or LAN access)
  4. For ‘regular folks’, even if BL were to opensource their cloud component, it will be a daunting task to set up personal servers to act as their ‘own’ cloud.

There is a far, far simpler solution to ask them:

  1. Run your printers on a MQTT-TLS w/ OTP pairing protocol
  2. Document all commands and statuses and release them to the public
  3. Build your apps and libraries around that assumption (so, local connection only, enable reverse-tunnel through the cloud if not on LAN, feel free to charge for that at least for future printers)
  4. (Optionally) Give the option to enable (heck, enable it by default) cloud reporting for MW points, boosts and whatnot - in which case the printer need to only report what it printed, not running the convoluted delivery via the cloud - this will save you a tremendous amount of money on the cloud while not compromising your strategy with MW
  5. (Mandatory) Hire a cybersec consultant and at least a few security-aware engineers to design and implement all this.
  6. Keep your cloud all to yourself.

There - everybody happy. If only BL was not too arrogant to listen; I’m afraid they’re already set on their way and a random commenter on the interwebs will likely not change their mind, even if only to take a pause and reconsider…

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The entire Bambu ecosystem is not designed for tinkerers. People buy their printers specifically because you don’t have to tinker. If you want to tinker, build a Voron. People keep trying to make Bambu something that is already available.

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That’s not the point @JonRaymond. The point is that the printers are sold because they have these features and the hardware is good.

If people want to use the hardware and be completely locked into the ecosystem, that’s fine. Some people, however, are asking for the ability to do things without that ecosystem. Without that level of control. Safely.

Is that a bad thing to ask for?

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They are not publicly traded so there is no way for us to know, but I would not be surprised in the slightest if a leak from their financial side comes out and shows that they make more money on filament, accessories and the likes - boosted/heavily promoted/incentivized by MakerWorld,

Even if not, it’s a bet BL is willing to put many, many chips on, so asking them to open that side of their business is pretty much a guarantee that it will not happen, especially not as appeasement to the the audience that is not their target group.

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Can’t see why it’s not a good idea. Yes, they say they want to keep it closed source, but this is probably the best time to ask them to re-evaluate that approach.

What is it that is so bad about that?

I’ll respond to some of your items, if that’s okay:

For ‘regular folks’, even if BL were to opensource their cloud component, it will be a daunting task to set up personal servers to act as their ‘own’ cloud.

I absolutely agree. For most ‘regular folks’ I expect they either won’t be interested in or would never hear about the option. But that’s fine. Most people would probably be happy to use the solution BL are proposing. I have no issue with that.

The ‘cloud’ is the problem - why would you want the convoluted way of printing things in the first place?

I don’t. But if the cloud is removed, things get more difficult - think again of the ‘regular folks’ who would find getting the things working without the cloud even more difficult than running an install script to populate a Raspberry Pi or similar.

And yes, that again is going against the initial desire to not use Raspberry Pi. But it could fill a need.

a random commenter on the interwebs will likely not change their mind

I’m not expecting a miracle, but options are options. If people agree with me then let their voice be heard. If you don’t, that’s absolutely fine. There’s no harm in me posting the topic and people reading it.

Edit: Fixed grammar

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The machines aren’t a continued revenue source. That comes from Filament sales and sales of things like hardware from the Maker’s Supply. Bambu’s product isn’t the printers, it’s the ecosystem. This is something so many people seem to fail to recognize in their crusade.

Apple doesn’t just sell an iphone, doesn’t just sell a computer. They sell a tightly integrated ecosystem.

I mean jeez, for that matter, look at the big console manufactures. You think Sony is gonna open up their online services to the open source community so they can create their own versions? :rofl:

You need to realize what Bambu as a company is, what their product is, and what their target audience is. And the thing is, their target audiance is growing, and their target audiance isn’t the open source community. Their target audiance is consumers.

I’m one of those consumers. I talk to others. In my design work, it has brought a number of interactions with people; a lot of those consumers. They’re awesome. They’re fun. they enjoy Bambu printers because of the whole of it, because the whole ecosystem makes it approachable and easy. They don’t want some super advanced product, they just want a tight system that works.

Bambu is under no obligation to please both crowds, and if their focus is more towards the consumer market, than that’s just what it is. That’s the reality of life. You can no more force them you be what you want or expect them to be, then you could force your partner to be what you want them to be. Instead of trying to force them to be what you want, you need to take some personal responsibility, realize this isn’t the partnership for you, and go find someone more aligned with your views.

I keep saying it, and I’m not saying it as a joke or whatever. Prusa is all these things everyone is demanding Bambu to be, yet they aren’t running over there in open arms. Prusa is already doing all the things people are wanting from Bambu, so why aren’t people flocking to Prusa?!

One of the biggest aspects of this is the closing off of MQTT. This was never an advertised feature, and that was clear enough when the Panda Touch dropped. Bambu warned everyone, but everyone just dove in anyway. BIQU even warned people that the Panda Touch might get bricked in the future.

Just because people decided to take advantage of an undocumented feature that wasn’t intended to be used for that purpose (Bambu didn’t intend it, regardless of the larger use of MQTT), doesn’t mean it’s some sort of feature that Bambu is now obliged to keep open.

But whatever. Despite not being a documented feature, despite not being intended to be used for those purposes, they decided to leave it open to placate people, yet they still come and cry and complain. They want their cake and to eat it too.

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I would like to relate a story to all of you about personal responsibility.

Some years ago I took a chance on love. I met a woman and we talked a lot, fell madly for each other. It seemed so perfect. I can’t say that the warning signs weren’t there from the start; certainly, they were, but I ignored them to some extent as I was blinded by, well, love.

I moved to another state for this woman. I gave up chunks of my life, believing this was my future now, and while I didn’t like letting go of all of those things, those parts of myself, I wanted to step up into this roll, into this life.

She became abusive though. She constantly accused me of looking at other women, of being dodgy, of being a crappy man. She would sit there on her phone looking at videos on tiktok of “what a real man is supposed to be” while giving me not so subtle hints that I needed to be more in line with that.

Then, she hit me. She didn’t just hit me. She smashed my phone on the ground, broke my glasses, then tried to tell me it was my fault she had to hit me. She told me she was scared of me, despite the fact that I never raised a hand, despite that I just stood there while she openly hit me across the face without recourse multiple times.

I tried so hard to make this situation work, but I had to realize that this relationship wasn’t healthy for me. I can’t change her. She doesn’t see any wrong she did. Indeed, she justified every time she hit me. I didn’t want to let go of this love, but I had to.

Leaving wasn’t easy. I ended up isolated from my friends and family because of the time I was with her. Getting back to my hometown was difficult because when I left, I had nothing. She controlled it all. I was homeless in a town far from anything I knew, that day I left.

Y’all seriously need to take more personal responsibility for things in life. You can’t always change or force things to be your way. Life doesn’t always pan out the way you want it too either, and the choices we make aren’t always the best ones for us. If you have such issue with Bambu that you feel that it’s abusive to your relationship, maybe you need to reflect a little and figure out what’s important to you, and where you are placing your energy. If you don’t like this relationship, leave it and find one that works for you, that makes you happy.

Y’all acting like you’re in this abusive relationship, and if only Bambu would treat you right, it’d all be so perfect. Instead of crying about how Bambu done you wrong though, maybe go find someone that will do you right.

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I agree. There’s no “forcing” going on, simply asking for consideration.

I agree. Completely and utterly. Prusa is a good, trusted brand. But that’s not really the point of this thread.

Is that really what you think this thread is asking? I’m truly horrified about what you had to deal with, it’s terrible. I have not had to go through anything like that, which I’m thankful for. But I’m not entirely sure what it has to do with Open Source Software.

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Incidentally, that’s what lead me to Bambu, and the year that changed my life. I realize so often that if I stayed in that situation, I wouldn’t have ever been happy. I was venturing out into the unknown.

I rediscovered 3d printing, and Bambu, and it blew my 2024 up and turned it into one of the most notable years of my life.

So yeah. Instead of trying to force something to work that clearly wasn’t working for me, I walked away from it; even as it hurt me to walk away. The time, effort, heart, money, I put into all of this, gone.

I’m so much happier now though.

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I know… But if you don’t ask you don’t get :slight_smile:

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It’s that you’re stuck in a relationship with Bambu that you don’t like, and instead of realizing maybe it’s not for you, you keep trying to push Bambu to be what you want them to be. The thing is, they aren’t, they aren’t going to be open source, and asking for stuff like this is, frankly, pointless. It’s just not the nature of what they want to be as a company.

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Ah, right that makes sense.

I mean, I completely get the point, though the words “force” and “push” are not what I’m going for in the thread. Just putting out that there’s an option if it was to be considered.

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The best way to lose an argument is to overstate it; the best way to leave empty handed is to ask for far too much.

BambuLab wants to be a consumer brand - an appliance provider if you will - they’d probably like to be Nespresso or Keurig of the 3D printing world, where they sell you the device cheap to bring you onto their ecosystem and then they figure out how to turn you into a recurring revenue stream. Unfortunately for BambuLab, XYZ, MakerBot and other similar companies attempted to do that way too early where 3D printing was indeed only for enthusiasts and sullied the waters for good which is why BambuLab is far more receptive of the tinkering crowd as well and far more permissive in the garden they’re increasingly trying to raise walls around than one would expect from a company targeting that segment of the market and openly advertising their strategy.

This, alongside some really excellent printers for the money, granted them a lot of goodwill so of course they don’t want to make the more ‘advanced’ crowd angry, and why they will make some provisions and adjustments to their strategy as it’s still too early to go foot first, but do not mistake that as ‘BambuLab cares about tinkerers’ - no, their target audience are regular people and they will not change this strategy no matter of how much we ask for it. Thus, asking them to open-source their stuff is not happening, don’t ask for things you know you won’t receive.

They don’t have to be - the cloud is only complicating things, there is no technological reason why you need the cloud to control the printer remotely. It’s purely because BL couldn’t think of a better way to do printing attributions for MakerWorld (and maybe some other less noble reasons). However, aside their atrocious security, what they didn’t calculate is how much will that cost them and if they don’t get proper recurring revenue stream this is an expensive way to do it, which is probably why they’re now trying to introduce the ‘local’ Connector to circumvent the current device-to-cloud-to-printer pathway. It’s just that they, seemingly, have no idea what they’re doing and are only embarrassing themselves in the process.

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So let’s approach this as if it was a feature request and not a demand for sweets and if I don’t get what I want I’ll hold my breath until I collapse.

If you don’t ask, you don’t get. Whether the issue is cloud control or not, or caring about tinkerers. I would like to be able to do the “cloud” stuff locally.

Why so argumentative?

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I know this isn’t like peaches and cream, and I’m sure lots of people will jump on me, but seriously.

It’s like if I went to Sony and tried to push them to open source.

I frankly think that people should vote with their wallets. If they want these things, they should be partnering with companies that are focused on these things; that it’s their Jam. Again, Prusa! Prusa is like so perfect for all these things people are wanting, asking about, demanding.

Damn, for as much as a bambu fella as I am, I feel like I’ve spent so much time the past few days trying to sell Prusa. I’m not trying to be snarky with it either. I literally think that Prusa is an amazing fit for all the things people are asking for. I don’t think Bambu is the company to provide those features, I don’t think they have that mind set. For better or worse.

This whole situation actually made me soften on Prusa, to the extent that hey, I’m kind of curious now to the extent that I could see myself getting a Core One. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna ditch my Bambu; I like em for all sorts of reasons. A bambu would be fun though, or a voron. I really want to build a voron; a platform that seems ideal for customization and modding.

I think there’s issues with their update and some of the direction they’re going. I poked at Bambu Connect a little bit and it feels… not well thought out. I think there’s some serious feedback that Bambu does need to hear in relation to these updates, but that should come through actually using and testing the beta stuff, rather than just speculating on what could be.

I’d like to install the beta firmware, but because I focus on design work to be released on Makerworld, it’s a little dodgy of a venture. So, I could only see so far into how the new system works. I see some potential issues there that they need to sort out if they want this to work.

I kept my whole message intact above, but saw this. I’m just, I mean it’s no accuse, but I’m rather grumpy from the past several days. I want to be able to have real conversations about this stuff, but a lot of times it hasn’t felt like it could be done.

I’ve talked to a few of my fellow forum members here and we’ve poked at some of the new stuff, and I think it’s bringing up some serious questions. I mean, there’s a few others that were obvious from the start, but also wthin that, I feel like they are taking a step back while rushing to fix something that they kind of sloppily put together in the first place.

I don’t think they intended the Ecosystem from the start, but seems like something that evolved a little later as they evolved as a company. I think things like keeping the MQTT open was sloppy development because they didn’t fully consider the future of the product, or the issues that they might have to face as it relates to security. It created a ton of problems, and now them trying to slap it in before a big release is… it’s too soon. Their software feels like it needs more testing.

There’s something to be said for those that bought into Bambu before Makerworld. I don’t know. It sucks, and I don’t think there’s an easy solution for this. I’ve had troubles like this with other products, and I don’t know. They can keep these products open to some extent, but they live within their ecosystem too, so for better or worse they have to evolve with that system. It’s not fair to those that bought into Bambu before that ecosystem was a thing. I guess the alternative is the kill the X1C and introduce a X2C that is more clearly an ecosystem component. That could also bite X1C owners though that want the cloud, but don’t want to be pushed into an X2C to get the full features of. :man_shrugging:

I think it’s easy enough to speculate on solutions, but the implementation of those solutions, their draw backs, and how people react to them, is difficult to actually predict. Especially when we’re talking about closed source vs open source, and the issues of the cloud, of security, of corporate security, of capitalism. Then you have these competing user bases; you’ve got the tinker crowd that is well versed in all of this stuff, then you have the consumer crowd that just wants to print cool things. Those bases compete with each other to an extent. To fully service one means you have to make compromises with the other. I mean, all of these things taken as a whole. It’s hard to have a cake and eat it too, level of satisfaction.

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And you can - right at this moment. You do need to jump through a few hoops but the only non-MW related cloud things are remote printing and camera view, both perfectly achievable without BambuLab or anybody elses’ cloud. You might not be able to do that in the future, however, which is why the whole uproar around the Connector arose.

The ‘cloud’ things can be much better implemented without the cloud, and without endangering BambuLab’s strategy in any sort of a way - at least their public strategy as they still claim they are doing this to increase security, not to control the one and only way to control the printers built by them - all they need is to implement standard and vetted ways to control IOT devices, nothing more, nothing less.

So, instead of asking them to essentially opensource MW and thus potentially create a competition for themselves on their own ‘ecoysystem’ - which they will most definitely not do - maybe asking them for something that is objectively better for their customers - both regular and tinkerers - and their own company goals is a more realistic option.

Not being argumentative - it’s just a different way at looking at things. You look at their system and say: “Look, everybody will be happy if you opensourced your cloud” whereas I see the “cloud” as the main issue here for everybody, incl. BL themselves.

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Some can split that difference. I think as these systems get more complex though, that’s not always so easily done. I’m not sure Bambu as a company has the extended experience to be able to pull that off so well.

Just look at Makerworld. They’ve done some amazing things with it, but there’s been a few short sighted moves too. Things that seem like they would have been obvious. If you got someone like Sony or Microsoft on that, they’d have access to the resources, to the people with deep knowledge and understanding, to be able to develop these systems properly. They’ve been doing it for awhile though.

Least we forget, Sony was one of the first major services to get hacked. That was 2011. They’ve had 14 years of experience since then.

There’s a lot of experience Bambu can tap into. Surely it can afford to hire seasoned engineers and such. I think it’s partly the company itself, in that it’s young and hasn’t matured. As a young artist, I wasn’t always smart with how I did things. That came with experience. Years and years of it, and a number of blunders and mistakes along the way. These companies are so large and complex these days that they’re a living entity onto themselves. They aren’t just a single engineer or programmer, but the whole of them working together and as the saying goes, you’re only as strong as your weakest link.

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