Printing below 0.06 mm layer height

Hi @EnoTheThracian ,
thanks for your answers, I really care about this project and your help is really appreciated.

First of all I decided to only use the 0.4mm nozzle from some days ago, since I saw that the final results of the prints are still good and the print time is significantly reduced (compared to the ones with the 0.2mm nozzle obviously). You may have some doubts about the nozzle used because I scaled the project to a bigger version so it seems printed with a 0.2mm but it is still the 0.4mm.

With that said let’s talk about the flow parameter;
the reason why I changed that is because from previous testing I noticed that the first layer had wide spaces between lines and if I remember correctly I had already tried to change the width without improvements… and this also happend when I was printing layers of 0.08 which the slicer should be able to handle correctly but the results said otherwise. My impression was that increasing the width of the lines the result was with wider lines but still with spaces in between.
Since I am not 100% sure about my past testing with line width and default flow rate I’ll try your suggestion next week to be sure.

About the number of layers, I can’t do a single layer of 0.09 because one single layer would mean a single direction of the printed lines which create weak points in the model, with two layers the printed lines directions are perpendicular and that gives the model more strength.

These are the flow preview from the test of my previous answer with the photos

to me they looks pretty good…

I tried to do a slice of the same model with all to default except for layer height and this is it

As I previously said I am not an expert but I thought that a correct value for the flow should be around 1 and above that would mean over-extrusion so this seems it will over-extrude.

If you need any other screen let me know.
And thanks again for all your answers.

  • Dalpy

Hi @Dalpy97 ,

Many thanks for all those details. I wasn’t sure if you were still using the .2 or the .4 so thanks for explaining that.

I concur that the flow previews themselfes do look very promising indeed. When I ran my experiments on the X1 and Plus 4, my flow was an order of magnitude lower.


From the results I had at the time, I feel confident about 0.03mm being achieveable. However, my focus was a different one. I was mainly concerned about shallow angle edge performance rather than needing very few, very thin layers.

In this context, I noticed that you seem to have aborted some test prints before completion. In these prints, it may pay out to wait for completion as inner imperfections may be ā€œironedā€ out (pun intended).
The reason why I expect this is that I too did see what I called exfoliation at 0.025mm. However, this was only a problem at the edges of my domes. I attributed this to a very high line width of 150% of nozzle diameter, compounded by the very rapid cooling of thin layers.

What I would suggest to try next is to:

  • Use flow = 1 for the 1st layer, as calibrated for all others
  • Use defaults for wall overlap, etc (that can come later if needed)
  • Slice first with a 125% nozzle diameter
  • Check flow: If the minimum flow is above 1mm³/s, reduce speed to give deposited material the chance to cool a bit slower
  • Run a test print (and let it finish :wink: )
  • Based on the test print, consider altering the line width between 100 and 140%

Other things that come to mind are of course that my trials were on different machines so lessons learned may not translate directly. In particular, I tend to run my chambers warm (30-35°C for PLA) which is not so easy to do with an A-series. I am not certain as to further differences such as extruder, nozzle and calibration method which may affect print quality at this fine level.

:crossed_fingers: & :four_leaf_clover:

PS: To make experimentation easier, you could print just sections of your part by slicing it into smaller pieces with the cut tool. You can then print by object and assign a parameter to each piece. That should give you a whole test series, for example for line width ranging from 0,42 to 0,6mm, with each print for an easier comparison. You can then either refine further, or change investigative parameters.
PSS: Please report on your findings!!! Fascinating stuff. We are using FDM printers to do SLA printer work here! :+1: :+1: :+1:

So a quick update…
I did the tests as you suggested all default except layer height and first layer speed lowered (better result from previous test) changing only the first layer line width 125% is default… i tried 150%, 175% and 200%… unfortunately the test did exactly as I expected

Sorry but I didn’t let them finish since first layers like this already gave me problems with past tests.

the second layer seems fine btw…

but you can clearly see the problem underneath…

Sorry but I still think that I need to increase flow rate :sweat_smile:

I think that the problems is exactly the slicer that keeps count of the changes of the line width and this way keeps doing the spaces between lines only for the first layer… so I was aiming to trick the slicer into not doing it by increasing flow rate.
Maybe that does not make sense to you but I am saying that based on the test I have done.

What should I be doing for the next test?

Thx

Dalpy

Mhm… I am a bit hesitant to recommend another test series as I do not want to send you on (another) wild goose chase.

I’ll try a few parameters on my X1.

In the meantime, what were your settings for first layer temps (nozzle and bed), speed and what is the approximate room temperature the printer is in?

I am really grateful for your interest in this but I am not sure if you should waste your time with this :sweat_smile:

Anyway the settings you requested:

nozzle temp (default temps never changed) min 190° - max 240°
bed temp 80°
speed first layer 50 mm/s (default)
infill first layer 50 mm/s

Another thing that only now I realized it could be critical info is that I set the print pattern like this

Dalpy

Ah sorry room temp is about 21.5°

I always enjoy a good physics puzzle :wink:

So far, I did manage to recreate your failure mode on my X1. Since in my prior work I focused on bulk prints, this surface defect must have slipped past me as my domes surface was essentially an outer line print quality.
I did not resolve or sufficiently understand it yet, but printing with a higher nozzle temp (+10°C) and bed (+5°) gave a better, but not yet good enough 1st (and 2nd, 3rd, fourth) layer.
Note that the min/max nozzle temps are only used for the filament change. The actual print nozzle temp is given below the plate temps.

Still playing around a bit with settings.

One item that may take a bit longer is for me to dry a roll overnight. There may be some moisture in them (haven’t dryed for a while and my AMS has about 5000h worth of wear & tear).

I’ll report back when I have a few more impressions and at the latest, after using a freshly dried roll.

:crossed_fingers: & :four_leaf_clover:

The nozzle temp is 220° for every layer

My filament in the AMS is now at 33% humidity that should be ok.

Hoping the best for you tests :crossed_fingers:

Just a quick intermediate update although it is not good atm.

While a 10°C nozzle and 5°C bed temp increase did give a much better 1st layer, the later 0,03mm layers were similarly underextruded as shown in your pics.
Printing on a 0.2mm 1st layer did give a better result, but that is not a solution for you.

So I wondered if there was something wrong with my prior trials, but strangely enough, while I did get a really good outer wall on some shallow domes, the inside surfaces were just as weak and underextruded.
In desperation, I even printed lenses on rafts which highlighted the problem. Really perfect from the top, but broken at the bottom. I am amazed it still printed. And puzzled why the wall’s are really, really good (except the very thin first layer).

So wondering if it may have been the slicer, I used Orca to print flat cubes (0.12mm height) on my Plus 4 using some PETG I had loaded. The 0.03mm 1st layer was beyond it, but I did manage to get a print out of it using a 0.2mm base with 0.03mm remaining layers. Same underextrusion though on the thin layers. So it wasn’t the slicer.

Currently running a test back on the X1 using layer heights in even fractions of 0.08 (heights are usually linked to stepper motor properties) with different surface patterns but I am still puzzling why it is printing outer walls very well at very low layer heights (if on a 0.2mm base) but is having issues with the infill.
Oh, I did also run a test with all settings (i.e. speed & acceleration) from the outer wall copied over to the infill. No luck unfortunately.

So I’ll run the current test using 0.02, 0.04, 0.06 and 0.08mm layer heights (1st layer all 0.02) with the different infills before checking on the roll in my drier. After that, I am afraid I am a bit out of ideas. There are some mechanisms in play that I have not yet fully grasped.

On another note, the AMS can not actually tell you about the filament humidity. Fresh rolls are frequently moist as they have been travelling the 7 seas after sittings dockside in bags that slow, but do not stop moisture ingress. (Qidi even uses that in its advertising.) And it isn’t going to come out anytime soon without heat, so a dry AMS can still contain moist filament.
My early warning sign is usually curling although I do dry all my rolls after taking them out of the bag these days.
I made this for a chuckle (and as a reminder) about a year ago:

However, it may not be related to moisture in this case as I saw the same failure mode on my Plus 4 using PETG. While PETG is much more prone to moisture induced defects, I printed very recently dried PETG from the Qidi Box and am certain that it is pretty dry.

I’ll let you know if falling back into the typical motor driven layer height intervalls (0.02, etc), a different infill or drying has a positive effect but I would not get my hopes up for a quick fix atm.

Your enthusiasm about this problem gives me hope even tho I know that the solution might not exist.

Abount the AMS, I share a printer with some colleagues and we never dried the filaments :see_no_evil: we printed an AMS in PETG with some TPU seal and put some silica inside to keep the filaments dry…

So far I would say the we didn’t have that many problems of humidity of the filaments since most print works out fine and usually the hygrometer we put to mesure the humidity is at 30% or lower (we heat up the silica periodically to restore it’s absorption properties)

I have one question, is there any particular reaso why you are testing with PETG?
I don’t remember if I ever mentioned it but I am printing in PLA, i tried PETG for this project once but it did not go well and in that case as some other PETG prints the problem could have been the filament moisture :joy:

So jtlyk, for the final settings I would like to stick with PLA if possible.
(I am aware that maybe you are testing with PETG because when you find the solution for that, then every other filament should work too but I don’t know :grin: )

Not quite there, but some slightly hopeful results.

Indeed, drying made a big difference already. I am now quite happy with a 0,04mm first layer height.
So I can certainly recommend putting a roll of PLA Basic into the drier.

My first trials used some PLA Matte and used 0,03mm layer height. That resulted in decent walls, but underextruded infill. Worse, underextrusion was really inconsistent. So a flow ratio increase would have landed me in worse trouble.

Double checking my previous result, I printed some lenses. Which confirmed that walls were good on 3D shapes, but infill was a problem.
(Still) not understanding why, I ruled out the slicer by switching to Orca which in turn also meant a machine switch due to the chore it is to switch (and back) on the X1. Since I had dry PETG loaded, I just used that but again, decent walls but underextrusion of the infill.

Going back to the X1, now with a definitely dry roll of PLA Basic, I did finally manage to get a pretty good 1st layer down at a layer 1st height of 0,04mm. Subsequent layers of 0,02 did continue to show infill underextrusion though.
Changing from infill to a 999 wall count however continues to show internal underextrusion.
The failure patterns I see indicate to me that flow dynamics calibration is really good but straight line flow shows underextrusion.

I still have a few trials/ideas left to run but as an intermediate status:

  • Really dry filament is really important for such low first layers!!!
  • I avoid out-of-phase layer heights (i.e. go for 0,02mm, 0,04mm, 0,06mm and avoid 0,03mm, 0,05mm, 0,07mm)
  • Using 0,5 and 0,6mm line width went well for the first layer
  • Defects show most prominently using the Archimedan pattern, followed by Concentric. Hilbert gives some stability but looks a mess. Rectilinear is best.
  • I increased nozzle temp by 10°C (to 230°C) and the bed temp by 5°C (to 60°C) to decrease viscosity and counter rapid cooldown

Atm, I am working on speed and line width to decrease the ā€œSignal-to-Noiseā€ but I do expect I’ll need to look at flow for final tuning. I’ll post some pic’s this evening regardless of wether or not I can get a reasonable result.

BW,
Eno

If you got a good first layer of 0.04mm you have already found the solution… I don’t think I will go lower than that but never say never :joy:
I will dry the filament asap and then retry the print, other changes to the configs?
+10° on nozzle and +5° on bed temp? But I see you set it to 60° but my default is 65° and from previous test the best result I got was with 80°.

I am curious what you will find out with the next tests.
:crossed_fingers:

Dalpy

I wish :sweat_smile:

After a bit more than a dozen plates, my brain got a bit jumbled. So I need a little time to collate the pic’s, do a rough write-up (it’ll be longer that it needs to be as I do not have the time for a short write-up :joy:).

As a quick summary:

  • Using an X1 (and for 2 mini-prints a Plus 4), there are of course differences to the A1 you are using. I’ll explain what and, more importantly, why I did particular trials and offer some cautious thoughts on how that may relate to your prints on an A1.
  • The temp increase really was the big winner for the first layer. I can now reliably get them smooth now. At 0.04mm thickness, they are still see-through of course (and not perfect, but functional).
  • Next, drying really was a game changer. It changed inconsistend underextrusion to consistent underextrusion. That may sound not so very constructive, but in fact, it is a prerequisite to even have a chance to get things right.
  • Increasing line thickness was a dead end that I spent a lot of build plates on.
  • Increasing speeds on the other hand did help. And did not destroy my plate, nozzle or even print :joy:
  • But: I am still getting severe underextrusion of the infill even when increasing flow :open_mouth:
  • Replacing infill with walls did in individual prints improve matters. But it failed the final tests :weary:

I’ll down- and upload my photos and make a write-up below. It does not solve your challenge, but it may give input for further thoughts. Perhaps you also have some insights and perspectives that can help us better understand as to the effects we are seeing at minimal layer heights.

That is really intresting…
the funny thing is that speeding up was helpful… I wouldn’t have guessed that never but two days ago I finished some prints on ludicrous mode (166% speed) and the rusult was almost perfect and I did not believe it… maybe a little underextrusion but really not bad (I am referring to the top layer not first one just to be clear)
In any case I don’t intend to start printing on that high speed as standard :joy:

Anyway I will try some of the settings you suggested as soon as I get the filament dry :muscle:

Dalpy

So, to do my write-up:

At first, I realized I had to better understand the problem. My trials on minimum layer height earlier in the year showed a good performance on lens-like shallow domes. The problem description was something I had not observed. But then, overall relatively thick lenses are very different from paper-thin prints. Especially since I did not look at minimum 1st layers in the past.

So, I generated some 0.12mm high cubes in Studio (ver 2.3.0.70, Developer Mode enabled) and some light blue Bambu PLA Matte that was loaded in my AMS, entered different layer heights, cleaned my Smooth PEI and applied a thin coat of Glue stick (a few lines of glue stick, a water soaked paper towel to spread it all around) and hit print.
So it was immediately apparent that the solid infill did not print as desired.

In consequence, I wondered about decreasing the filaments viscosity but felt I had only little room to play. In my X1, I usually print my PLA with chamber temps of 30-35°C. But with minimal flow, I was concerned about heat creep and therefore limited myself to a 5° bed temp increase (to 60°C) and a 10° nozzle temp increase (to 230°C).
It may be sensible to go higher, but in a closed printer this can quickly lead to heat creep (amhik :wink:). In fact, it was pretty difficult to get the flimsy, paper thin prints off the bed so I could not have gone higher. It may be quite different with an open printer and/or a different plate. So if higher temps work for an A1, that may be a good route to extend the test space.

This trial showed some consistency to the underextrusions:

Then, I became a bit more systematic and went for different surface patterns. Rectilinear for strength and bonding, concentric and archimedan chords to show line extrusion problems and Hilbert because, well, why not?
From this stage on, temps were set, 1st layer height 0.04mm, subsequent variable (bottom to top: 0.02, 0.04, 0.06 and 0.08).

Worried about the validity of my earlier results, I turned to shallow lenses (sphere primitives lowered below the build plate) and printed those.


With the result of a really nice and smooth outer surface. No problem. Only a little jagged at the edge of the first layer.

So I tried putting them on a raft just in case.


Nothing unexpected.

Until:

So the infill underextrusion problem also occurs with the lenses. It just doesn’t show with the great outer surface.

At that point, I remembered that my earlier trials did not actually use Bambu Studio. A minimum layer height print is greatly helped by the ability to ā€œCombine Infillā€. Since this was (and to my knowledge still is) severely bugged in Studio, I used Orca where it works sensibly and reliably.
Since connecting and reconnecting the X1 with Orca (and back to Studio) is a chore, I used my Qidi Plus 4 as the Qidi Slicer is a fork off Orca. Then, I used the same flattened cube as before with the already loaded and dried PETG.
Same result unfortunately.

Next, I went back to Studio and the X1 to run test series with now dried white Bambu PLA Basic starting with the established temps. Well, it did take me a few plates to understand that line thickness increases are a dead end :joy:


My hope was that I could decrease the relative effect of the undesired ā€œnoiseā€ by increasing the total ā€œsignalā€ strength. The consistency of the underextrusion should have taught me better, but sometimes I can be a slow learner.
Speed increases did however help somewhat. At least by feel :wink:

Next, I increased flow from its default 0.98. For Flow Dynamics, I used auto-calibration which gives good results as the patterns on the concentric and hilbert samples show. Continuous lines is where underextrusion shows most prominently.



While not perfectly happy, I felt this was as good as it was gonna get.

However, with my day job being on R&D for large structures, I am well versed with the dangers of drawing conclusions from small smaples.
So I wanted to go from small samples to something more akin to your problem description.

My next flat rectangles were quite a bit larger, consisted of a single 0.04mm 1st layer, a 0.02mm second layer, followed by 2 layers of text of 0.02mm each.
Results at the left are from the bottom to the top in chronology.


That 1.2 flow sample is not that bad, but it does show both underextrusion and the wavy pattern typically associated with overextrusion. So I went back to a flow of 1.1, but strangely, it actually got worse.

When I then did that last trial with all layer heights increased to 0.04mm and it turned out worst of all, I knew I probably got something mixed up (again), needed to do a memory dump, take a break, rest and see what other ideas come up either from myself, yourself, or of course other interested printers.

My current thinking is that

  • the flow limit for the extruder may actually be higher than I had initially thought. But that does not explain why the lenses are printed with such a perfect outer wall.
  • So I expect that I do not fully understand (or even misunderstand) the difference in the application of flow for a wall and a surface.
  • Or something else entirely.

So for the time being, I need to take a little break but I do hope that you can use these observations. Please let us know about your thoughts and progress. 2 brains are usually better than 1, or even 2 on their own :wink:

:crossed_fingers: & :four_leaf_clover:

PS: With the H2C just out, I have a competing ā€œphysicsā€ problem: It has a different extruder advertised for its’ accuracy… So I need to allocate a few brain cells to work on the problem of ā€œsellingā€ the desparate need for a 3rd printer to my family :joy:

Man this is awesome! :heart:

This is a ton of testing with amazing data to work on and to be honest I see some good results from the pictures (i hope it’s not only an illusion of lighting and camera angle :see_no_evil:)

Good luck on convincing your family on the H2C, really cool product but I’m not sure if the nozzle swap is as good as they are ā€œsellingā€ so if you’ll get one… or better WHEN you’ll get one let me know how it is :wink:

Now I have a lot of testing to do :muscle:
I will try to update this post when I have some good news hopefully :crossed_fingers: (or when I am losing hope)

And thanks again for all the work you have done!

Dalpy

Here I am with some good news.

After more testing I was login hope since nothing seemed to work… analising the print with a colleague we noticed that the gcode path for some unknown reason was not doing a linear print of the object from one corner to another but did the central part then jumps up and down to finish the rest of the object; this was the cause of some spaces and overlapped lines in the first layer.
So initially i checked if it was possible to modify the gcode but I qucly discarded the idea since it seemed difficult and dangerous.
The problem of the gcode path seemed to be the angle of the object so I decided to bring the infill angle from 45° to 90° since the second layer always printed fine.

This was game changer, the first layer still had gaps with default settings but i could fix that with the flow rate.

So whit a little hope restored I decided to restart the testing from 0 with this new info and aiming to change as little as possible the default configurations.

The first print with all config to deafult except for layer height set to 0.04 mm and the print tipe set to rectilinear would be the base for the following tests and except for the known first layer problem the rest was awsome.

Then I started to change other parameters one at a time:

  • line width (max tested: 1mm): does what it says but does not solve the first layer problem
  • initial layer flow ratio (max tested 2mm): does solve the problem but I would have preferred to not need to change it (no luck on this :sweat_smile:)
  • sparse infill density (100%): no change visibile to the eye on the first layer
  • infill/wall overlap (50%): no change visibile to the eye on the first layer

so after this tests I decided that I would not test further with line width, sparse infill density and infill/wall overlap.

Stated to test with different values for initial layer flow ratio and, with my surprise, i got the best results with a value of 1.9 or 2 that in my brain was extreamly high.
This is the result of first layer with intial flow at 1.9

there is a little bit of over-extrusion but It is the best result I got.
Unfortunately the last layer was not that good

for comparison this is the top layer of the print with all default settings

And this is what I would like to archieve.

Do you have any idea why the ā€œInitial layer flow rateā€ influences the print of the top layer? I thought It would only affect the first layer…
Am I missing something?

As a workaround for the moment I am testing reducing the ā€œTop surface flow ratioā€ to avalue in between 0.5 and 0.7 (I haven’t finished the testing yet) and the result is pretty good, probably not perfect but good enought at this point.

So if any of you have any suggestions let me know or if you can tell me why the initial layer flow affects the top layer plese tell me because I really have no clue.

As always thanks and happy printing :wink:

So to close the topic the answer is yes, it is possible to print layers of height below 0.06mm
I’m currently printing layers of 0.04mm with a 0.4mm nozzle.

Unfortunately I still didn’t find the perfect config to print my project with the quality I want but that is another story…

Dalpy