Hi everyone,
have you ever tried to print a project with layers below 0.06 mm with 0.2 mm nozzle or below 0.08 mm with a 0.4mm nozzle?
Can you share your experience and suggestions?
Thank you
So if I got it correctly you managed to get I really good print with basic settings on a 0,4 mm nozzle setting the layer height to 0.0125 mm which is way below what I want to archieve and that is amazing!
Correct me if I missed something…
I should be able to get a decent print using the 0.4 mm nozzle and just setting the layer height to a value above 0.006 mm? (a layer of 0.04 in my case)
Obviously I would prefer if possible not to change the default parameters too much on parameters because I’m not that experienced…
I already had to slow down the speed and heat the plate up to 80 degrees to get a decent resolution on my print.
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Yes, going lower with the layer heights is not really a problem nowadays. Just make sure you do not apply a very thin 1st layer. I always used 0.2mm for the 1st layer.
Before printing, check the flow preview. If flow is very low, say 0.002, you’ll not get a decent print.
Also, my experiments were with PLA. I expect similar results with unfilled materials, but filled materials (Glow, Wood, CF, GF) fail well before that. I had a PEKK-CF print fail at the lowest default on my Plus 4…
Finally, if you need to fisdle with temps, consider changing something else first. Slowing down is good but if it is insufficient, maybe increasing 1st layer thickness (to default) and/or 1st layer line width (150% of default) are even better. Again, check the flow preview.
& 
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I’ve been printing small model figures with a 0.2mm nozzle and have had good success changing layer height to 0.05 without any other changes to the default settings.
I’ve read it’s possible to go thinner, but that it will need some effort to get new calibrations.
The results have been approaching resin printer standards of finish, but print times get significantly increased.
I think talk of layers heights of 0.006mm is just fantasy. I don’t think the Z axis motor control systems are capable of such small resolution.
The limits will be set by engineering tolerances and stepper motor resolution.
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The current limit is given not by the z-axis, but by extruder motor control. Below 0.03mm layer height is possible, but flow goes way down. Neither the P1/X1 nor the Qidi Plus 4 can control flow sufficiently at flow rates at or below 0.01mmÂł/s.
Not sure about the H2/P2 though as they feature a new extruder.
PS: When I reached a layer height of 0.0125mm, I could neither see nor feel them anymore.
Of course the layer limit is limited by the Z axis accuracy.
The nozzle can’t print layers thinner than the mechanical tolerances of system.
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The flow control limit is reached well before the z-axis control limit. If the extruder is not extruding, the nozzle isn’t printing. That is the current limiting factor.
You must have a golden extruder, cuz 0.01mm3/s is way better than I tested on my P1. It really suffered from low flow inconsistencies starting at about 0.25mm3/s for me, including nasty heat creep even with glass off and door open.
At some point in time, gravity supplies more newtons to the puddle of melted goo in the nozzle than the extruder is, and the whole balanced system kinda falls apart in every way
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Unfortunately today I didn’t have time to test the layers of 0.04mm
This is the preview of the flow of the first layer (Sorry but I need it to be as thin as the others)
Do you think this could work?
I’ll test this asap and will share the result.
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Flow wise, that looks doable. But is that a single layer? I recommend leaving the 1st layer at its default 0.2mm as that gives a good adhesion.
&
Edit: Note that you squeeze out some extra flow by invreasing the line width. Using 0.6mm with the 0.4mm was a little too much for me. I’d try 0.5mm if the need arises.
Hi @Bullocks ,
Sorry, I should have been more precise. At 0.01mmÂł/s, I also have no chance of getting anything sensible out of the printer. But 0.04mmÂł/s was doable.
BW,
Eno
Hey there,
so today I managed to do some tests and they were better than I expected
the layers are always of 0.04mm
these with 0.2 mm nozzle
the first layer is not good but I wanted to test the same project with the 0.4mm nozzle and this is it
even in this case the first layer is not so good but the final result is ok…
so I decided to try and increase the flow rate of the first layer… i tried 1.1 and 1.2 but was not enough, stepped up to 1.5 and this is it
Better than the previous ones but not perfect.
This setting slightly ruins the top layer so I don’t think going any higher with the first layer flow will improve the print.
Do you guys think I can solve this somehow or have I reached the limit?
Thx
Dalpy
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Hey, that looks pretty good 
Are you able to keep the very first layer at a higher level? Like 0.2 or at least 0.1mm? That first layer is special and benefits from a higher thickness. After that, you can go a lot lower.
What you could try is not to increase flow directly, but instead increase the line width. That has the same effect as increasing flow, but does not lead to overextrusion. In my trials I only looked at 100 and 150% of default line width. Something in between is probably best.
For the 0.2mm nozzle, I expect you are coming close to the limit at 0.04mm. For the 0.4mm nozzle, you could try 0.03mm. At 0.025mm, you should expect defects to start to occur as a result of uneven flow control. Depending on the model, the print may still be usable though.
Well done 
, &
Sorry but the first layer needs to be 0.04 
In today’s tests I scaled the project to be a bit bigger (except for thickness that needs to be the same) and tried to adjust line width as suggested but after some testing I am confused…
the default settings with nozzle 0.4mm are
initial layer width = 0.5mm
initial layer flow ratio = 1
after unsuccesful testing I tried this
initial layer width = 1mm
initial layer flow ratio = 1.5
and this is the result
I thought that those values were too much high but from the result they seems still too low…
What do you think?
I still don’t understand why the first layers prints differently from the rest… the second layer never has those spaces between the lines.
Thx
Dalpy
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The first layer is the layer that bridges between physical reality and the gcode plan. Expect the unexpected! This is fanciful language but like. Really. Every other layer is built up on the shoulders of the last one, which was placed there by the same machine with the same tolerances, a uniform material, etc. The first one does not have the same advantage.
//That’s a reason why it’s common to keep your initial layer height at 0.20 (example) even if you’re printing at 0.12. You get to flex your muscle of troubleshooting within that 0.20 gap as a held constant.
///0.04 allows for such incredibly low margin of error, I’m following the thread out of morbid curiosity! I hope you get it!
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Well, there’s some conjecture here, but what I assume is happening is that a 1mm line width with a 1.5mm flow ratio should lead to lines of about 1.5mm (fore and aft being equalized by movement, i.e. speed). Since the line width is assumed as 1mm, there should be a significant overextrusion.
However, with the flat portion of the 0.2mm A1 nozzle being just over 1mm in diameter, the significant sideways flow under the nozzle will squish upwards at the edges. When cooling rapidly (due to its low thickness), this is likely to pull up the edges.
Of course there’s a lot of conjecture here from my side based on the error pic and the measurement of the 0.2 A1 nozzle I had bought accidentally, but it could explain the error image.
If correct, further increasing these values would probably just result in worse error pictures.
There is however one further parameter that can be used to increase flow although I am very hesitant to actually recommend it.
When I ran my minimum layer height trials, I used speed to increase flow. With the first layer being deposited much more slowly than later layers and using a line width of say 0.9mm, there may be sufficient squish to allow faster 1st layer deposition.
But as I mentioned, I have not done this kind of thing to the first layer myself! Be prepared for complete failure as the nozzles speed may just pull the fresh line cleanly from the plate… Or worse, lead to ridges at the top into which the nozzle will run during the second layer.
&
PS: The first layer is absolutely critical for any print as it determines how stable the print will sit in place during manufacture. That is why it needs special settings and attention.
Now I switched to the 0.4mm nozzle since the result is really similar to the 0.2mm nozzle but the printing time in highly reduced.
Thanks to you I discovered the flow view in the slicer that I never used before this post and earlier today I tweaked the parameters to get a flow around 1 for every single layer…
Since with a lot of previous test I found the perfect settings for speed and bed temp I’ll try to not touch those values anymore because doing so would reintroduce 2 more variables in the equation and would lead to restart the testing from scrach (I’ll try my best to avoid that)
We’ll see tomorrow the results of today’s tweaks:joy:
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These are the results of yesterday’s tests:
with these settings
general line width = 0.47mm
initial layer flow ratio = 1.7
first layer density = 100%
infill/wall overlap = 50%
I got this
which is not bad all considered but not ideal either… and a bit later I found out it is not as strong as i thought…
then i tried to increase slightly the parameters testing one at a time:
general line width = 0.50mm
initial layer flow ratio = 1.8
infill/wall overlap = 75%
but there was no improvements…
here and example (flow 1.8)
I am no really sure at this point if the result can get any better so I got the crazy idea to change the model and do 3 complete layer of 0.03 mm and 2 pattern layers of 0.03. This to get a total thickness of the first part (complete layers) of 0.09mm which I hope wil not behave too different from the 0.08mm and the total thickness of the pattern layers of 0.06 which sould be good enough…
Let me know I you have any other idea to test
Thanks
Dalpy
Hi @Dalpy97 ,
I fear there may be a slight misunderstanding as to the effect of changing the flow ratio.
While it will indeed increase the flow out of the nozzle, the slicer does not compensate for the additional material volume. So increasing flow of a well dried and calibrated filament can not be expected to resulted in good prints. In particular ridges forming as a result can even damage a fast nozzle.
So to get the layers that you want, line width is the more important parameter as it is compensated for in the slicer.
The values you mentioned are still with the 0.2mm nozzle? Or with the 0.4mm? Ironically, the larger nozzle is able to print thinner lines as it has more flow which drowns out the noise better from flow control noise.
Depending on the nozzle you are using, I’d reset pretty much everything to defaults (except minimum layer height of course), keep the flow at the defaults but play with layer height and maybe speed. Only once a reasonable layer has been produced would I look at infill/wall overlap.
From the pic’s, it looks like almost like a 2D extrusion. So why not go for a single base layer of 0.09 and subsequently a single pattern layer of 0.06mm?
Similarly, the pattern you trying to produce on the upper side seems to be defined by its gaps. The 0.4mm can make the same line gaps as the 0.2mm nozzle. Only sharp corners will loose resolution.
I assume that you are checking flow in the preview? A screenshot or two would help showcase where you are currently at.
Best wishes, & ,
Eno