Sudden bed adhesion problems, and usual fixes aren't working

LakeLobster · August 17, 2024, 8:17pm

Hi, I bought my P1S a few months ago and have about 400 hours on it at this point. Things were working well, until about 3 days ago when suddenly I started having major bed adhesion problems.

One moment I was printing, and the parts were stuck firm to the plate until it cooled. Then, it wasn’t anymore.

If I was printing something large, sometime around the 2nd or 3rd layer, the ‘sheet’ would sometimes pull up off the plate and get dragged away by the toolhead. If I stopped a job mid-print, I could reach in there and gently pull off anything that was laid down, prior it was stuck fast and would have had to be firmly peeled off.

I tried the usual procedures of cleaning the build plate (dish soap and water), but oddly, the same problem occurs exactly the same on two different build plates. So I’m very skeptical of it being the plates, because it happens on both, and it didn’t gradually get worse as I’d expect if the plates were dirty or needed cleaning. The spots where the print begins to come off also seem to be random, rather than in one particular spot to indicate buildup of oil or other contaminant. I also did a factory reset and recalibration of the machine.

I don’t think there’s a problem with my filament, as I was using the same stuff both before and after things went bad. It’s in the AMS with a bunch of desiccant so I think it’s sufficiently dry. I’ve had the same problems with Bambu, Inland and Overture PLA, and some Inland PETG.

I did notice that increasing the bed temp 8 degrees somewhat improve things, but I do still get many instances of the parts curling off the plate, which I did have any problems with before. The plate is definitely hot, but is it common for the heaters in those two go out or become inaccurate, is the machine reports it at the target temperature. I don’t have a good way to verify the beds temperature, and it looks like the troubleshooting steps are more for the print bed not heating up at all.

I have ordered a new nozzle/hotend as in other threads some people found that to fix their problem, so I will try that when it arrives.

In the meantime, anyone have some ideas on other things to try? I am very reluctant to have to put brims on everything or introduce changes to the print settings, as the defaults were working great for quite some time.

alitopuz · August 17, 2024, 8:57pm

Hello, I had the same problem and no matter what I did I couldn’t solve the problem. I tried the spare textured pei plate I had and my sticking problem was fixed. I think the surface of the printing plate deteriorates after a certain amount of use.To check this, I printed the same model on both plates with the same settings and the result was that the old plate had the problem while the new plate had no problem.

user_3026326371 · August 17, 2024, 9:09pm

I encountered the same issue after about 20 prints when all was new.
Use more/less glue, different temps and other settings, nada…
Then I took the plate to the sink and let some water run over it…

Let’s just say it was NOT looking evenly.
Let it dry in air and dusted it with some fine power - it revealed several areas where the powder got stuck - areas where my prints struggled.
Like it or not IPA won’t clean all off the plate…

For a while I cleaned the plate with warm soapy water and a sponge.
But for the quick cleaning I use a window cleaner that has a tiny amount of ammonia in it - can barely smell it.
I used it on my car before and liked how it left so really no residue behind.
Does not take much either, a quick squirt onto a paper towel is enough - just don’t clean a hot plate…

LakeLobster · August 17, 2024, 9:12pm

@alitopuz that’s one of the strange aspects, is that my older plate seems to work slightly better than my new one.

I can try window cleaner and see if that yields anything new.

alitopuz · August 17, 2024, 9:20pm

@LakeLobster Even after washing my old plate thoroughly under warm water for at least 3-4 minutes using a soft sponge with dishwashing detergent, the sticking problem persisted.

user_3026326371 · August 17, 2024, 9:59pm

I assume the water runs off evenly over the entire plate ?

That’s rather odd indeed…
What the IPA won’t get the soap will, so there should be nothing left on the plate making a mess.

Did you try a glue pen/stick on the bed?
Despite the advertising my plate is not reliable using PLA without adding some glue.
I also checked your image again…
That shape is not really great in terms of providing good adhesion.
It is like a collection of thin walled objects - and bump or such on the top layer makes the cell flex a bit.
The next hit might already flex surrounding cells.
But I assume the same adhesion problems happen if you print something that has a bottom layer…

Take a good light source, preferable single LED type and check the clean plate against it.
Spin it, tilt it, move it (or the light facing you and the plate).
The surface should provide uniform reflection levels and shine.
If you spot dull looking areas or spots that appear a bit like a stain with a clearly visible ‘line’ around them you might have a damaged coating.
It is not actually textured PEI plates - it is a textured plate with a VERY thin PEI coating on top, big difference as the former would not wear out…
With the liquid glue stick you should still be able to use such a plate until a replacement is in your letterbox.

Last but NOT LEAST - possible hardware failure…
Do you have a reliable temperature probe to use on the bed to CONFIRM it has the set temperature?
Did you ever do a test print to check if your nozzle temps suddenly had to be increased to get better results?
Asking as sensors and the thermal paste around them can fail, same for the paste under the heating pad on the hotend.
So you might do everything just fine while the machine gets wrong sensor data or the hotened is unable to keep up…

Olias · August 17, 2024, 11:37pm

If I only had a dollar for every post here that claims … “I cleaned my plate thoroughly.”

Before confirming a plate is clean, run a first layer test, as it will highlight any issues with the build surface.

Simple layer test: Scale a cube primitive to 240x240x0.20mm, center it, and print. If the model isn’t a smooth sheet, the plate is likely contaminated.
Use glue: Apply glue to see if it improves stiction properties.
Painter’s tape: Apply tape to the build surface. If material sticks to the tape, it indicates contamination. This was the way 3D printing was done before heated beds.
Check plate temperature: Use a non-contact thermometer (as low as $11) to verify even heating. Here’s a link. Uneven temperatures can indicate contact issues with the magnetic plate.
Raise bed temp: Increase the bed temp by 20C or more and see if this affects the model stiction.
Brims; The use of Brims can help with stiction.
Deep clean: Avoid IPA for deep cleaning, most people use the drug store 75% IPA which itself may have contaminants. Instead, use Dawn dishwashing detergent and hot water with a nylon scrub pad. Details can be found in this link.

If you are using 75% drug store IPA, look on Amazon for 95% or better IPA or your local paint or hardware store may have denatured alcohol in the solvents section which is also a better cleaner albeit very expensive.

This is the most recent brand of IPA I purchased exclusively for cleaning. It was the cheapest I could find in bulk. But there are many others out there so buy on price not label.

In addition to that, get a high volume sprayer which will flood the surface of the plate. This is much more effective than using a rag and will wash away the contaminants with a forceful blast. Here’s two examples that I found effective. One is made of glass and the other, wide mouth. They both have a jet option which is useful and acts almost like a pressure washer.

This one has the highest blast pressure and is designed to be used with harsh chemicals. The only drawback is the narrow neck of the bottle.

Photo Album

Plates that folks swore were clean and looked clean after IPA but weren’t

Example of a perfect first layer test from a clean plate.

LakeLobster · August 19, 2024, 5:37am

It’s looking like that. I was a bit skeptical as both plates suddenly turned bad at the same time, but perhaps I did something to contaminate them both that I just don’t remember.

I took @user_3026326371 's suggestion and cleaned it again with dish soap then followed up with window cleaner (though mine doesn’t have ammonia) and did another print of the multiboard grid. I think your suspicion that the grid is a bit of a torture test is correct, because any thin wall that lands on a contaminated area can pull off without other model material helping keep it down. Anyways, it printed perfectly. So, I followed that up by doing @Olias’s 1 layer test and printed a sheet, and it came out virtually flawless.

I then grabbed the other plate and printed another sheet on there, without doing anything to it, as a control. It wasn’t nearly as bad as some of @Olias’s examples, but there were some spots that looked rather dodgy. I didn’t upload a pic of it because you can’t see the details in the photos.

As a sanity check, I attempted to print the sheet again to the other side of that build plate that was loaded up with glue stick, that I had been using to successfully print stuff in the meantime:

By that point I thought I had seen enough, so I cancelled that mid-print, and cleaned the plate, with glass cleaner, and tried again. The results were like night and day.

So sure enough, looks like simple build plate cleaning was needed, but more than just soap and water like I did the first time around. Thanks for the info.

user_3026326371 · August 19, 2024, 7:59am

I learned the cleaning stuff the hard way when (unsuccessfully) trying my skills in airbrush.
The cheap paints I used literally highlighted fingerprints and other contaminations.
Either by just running off or accumulating on these spots.
When I started 3D printing I used a glass plate, unsanded at first.
And that really opened my eyes in terms what sorts of things can ruin a perfectly clean looking surface.

Our filaments are not often as pure as they should be, they can leave a residue behind, so can our fingers and whatever we used on the bed.
I had a very frustrating few day when my prints kept failing despite cleaning and all.
Those cotton gloves I used somehow ended up with some wax like stuff on them
After this I tried to find out what actually IS required to clean a build plate…

Soap binds with WATER on one end and with dirt/oily stuff on the other end.
Means What soapy water and a sponge takes off stays off.
Alcohol comes in many flavours, like glycerine.
But ethanol or isopropanol are what we use most.
The former however can be a problem on the build plate if it is the last chemical you used to clean the bed.
Methylated spirit, denatured alcohol - whatever it is called in your area…
Something it is the bad methyl stuff in there - because it was not discarded during the distillation process.
Bittering agents are another addition - they make it near impossible to get the hardware store booze down your throat.
IPA should come pure or with just water in it in.
As we can’t drink it there is no need to prevent abuse.
Both are good for oily residue, like sewing machine oil in terms of viscosity.
Not so good though for wax and a grease like residue - fingerprints and such.
Takes a lot of rubbing as the alcohol can’t bind with them - soap does though.

Window cleaner usually comes with dedicated surfactants designed to deal with even the worst, like dried on bird poo…
They contain some alcohol, often a bit of ammonia and also chemical meant to bind with dirt.
If the surface is wiped dry, preferably with a microfibre cloth the remaining film on the surface dries without leaving a residue.
Some sticker plates even tolerate Acetone but it can’t be used on PEI and should only be used as a last resort, like when ABS is fused to the bed.

On my TK99 plate, if it got really filthy I use Pitambara powder.
A cleaning powder from Indian grocery stores.
Has soap, some very mild abrasives and other things in it.
Great on copper, silver and other soft metals as it polishes while you clean.
If you mix a teaspoon worth or two with water in a small soft drink bottle and let it settle for a good while you can take most of the liquid out and leave the polishing stuff behind.
Cleans the plate with a spnge even after the kids decided to use it to protect the carpet from the playdoh…

system · August 21, 2024, 8:00am

This topic was automatically closed 2 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.