Am i crazy or i have a problem?

But you are getting some minor top surface scarring visible on the blue on the far right as well as some other defects. All minor but it looks like you are seeing a small bit of moisture effects.

It’s important to remember the role ambient humidity plays in all this. First, if people are getting good prints, more power to them. If their weather and printer environment are sufficiently dry, people may not need to dry further. But those experiences don’t transfer to others unless their environments are equally dry.

To be honest that PA6-GF looks moist. I only have an orange color to compare to so perhaps it has to do with that but I don’t seem to get as much orange peel look. Perhaps it’s the zoom, I’ll have to try a benchy for fun.

Very nice picture by the way.

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That PA6 was in a Sunlu 4 set at max temperature for probably 30 hours and was hot to the touch when it went straight into the AMS and I sent already sliced file to the printer.
The Bench file takes 38 minutes from start to finish so that PA6 was out of the heater for probably 45 minutes.
My point is not that drying is a waste of time but short of a person having enough dryers for every spool and a loooooong time for any given spool to sit in a dryer of which most people probably top out at 4 dryer slots, (Sunlu 4 or 4 single slot dryers) you have to pick what needs to be in the dryer because you don’t have enough time or available slots to keep your filament dry.

This is a cross-section of a high voltage line but is adequate for my point. Bear in mind that a cross-section of a filament spool will have more strands than the copper.
wire

Drying your filament is dependent on two things. Heat and air flow. Heat to reduce the water holding capacity of the filament and air flow to carry away the moisture laden air out and away from your filament.
Once you get a few rows in on your filament, your airflow drops significantly due to pressure drop as is winds its waythrough that cross-section of filament.

Since it realistically takes days to pass hot hot air over every milimeter of filament you are better served by keeping your most water absorbing filaments in the dryer all the time (since you don’t have an infinite numbers of dryers.).
Tossing a spool of filament that has been sitting on a shelf for week, into a dryer for 2 - 4 hours, you’ve probably only stripped the water out of a few rows deep of filament.

I think you just forgot one main contributing factor: ambient humidity. I likely have the advantage here as I live in the valley of the sun, Arizona.

So, while I did basically the same drying as you, Sunlu S4 at max for over a day I probably have an advantage unless you happen to live in a very dry climate as well.

I figure between the AMS and the S4 both with aftermarket desiccant packs they won’t pick up a lot of moisture while being stored / printed. But I only have the experience of this dry environment.

My main point is simply that an engineering filament with fiber reinforcement generally can / should have a nice tight surface finish mostly devoid of orange peel when the filament is properly dried, calibrated and printed at the proper specs.

If you do live in a humid environment then I suggest checking @MZip solutions / posts, he has put in a great deal of work in the filament drying arena.

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If your filaments are printing well that’s great but if you look at micrographs of filament it’s rough as a cob and has pits all over it. Even filament strands wound perfectly side by side have gaps between them we just don’t see. And air currents aren’t that important in that world. Water molecules are tiny and are zipping around like nobody’s business. How fast are water molecules moving at room temperature? Almost 2000 feet/second. They cover a lot of ground very fast even though they are hitting things all the time.

That world doesn’t behave like people are used to. Sure, bulk flows are important too but things are very active in a spool of filament. We just aren’t able to see it. It’s still there, though.

If you want to expend some energy, Google “Latent heat of evaporation”
This is very simple process.
As an aside, the roughness you allude to is not your friend here.

You have to put so many BTU’s into the system to to vaporize, purge, remove your moisture laden air. Since we have an upper boundary temperature at which the plastic melts (and clogs your nozzle) we need a buffer on the high side to prevent melting of our filament.
So you have to add lower heat for a longer time.

This is really no different than the following example on your 4 burner stove.

4 two gallon pots, each filled with 1.5 gallons of water and our goal is an empty pot

Pot 1 - Turn that burner to high and let 'er rip.
Pot 2 - Turn burner to 66%
Pot 3 - Turn burner to 33%
Pot 4 - Burner is off

The pots will run dry at different times.All 4. Even the pot with no heat

So this gets us to dryers. You have filaments which are extremely hydrophilic
and other filaments, not so much but variable on a slope.

What to do if you have 15 spools of filament and only a single Sunlu S4 dryer capapable of holding 4 spools?

You have 5 spools of PLA, 3 spools of ABS, 3 spools of PETG, 2 spools of PC, 1 spool of TPU, 1 spool of ASA

How do you manage your Sunlu S4. Thats your dryer. 4 slots.
You have 11 other spools of filament that require management to keep them dry which requires ???.

A bit familiar with latent heat of vaporization. And the surface roughness both holds more water due to more surface area, but also is what makes for water being able to get out without bulk air flow. It is what it is.

This is very different from your four burner example too. First, there is a misconception. The pans look dry but they are not. There’s still multiple layers of water stuck to them unless you’re starting to approach heats where they glow. You can’t see the water but it’s there. The water that was stuck to water is easier to remove than the water stuck to the metal that you can’t see. Water will evaporate down until the attraction to the surface through the closer layers gets strong enough to stop net evaporation. At that point, just like with filament - you have to start adding energy to get more water to let go. You are trying to rationalize bulk effects when what we are concerned with are molecular affinities for surfaces. (And in reality, there’s energy as long as the system is above absolute zero. Again, it comes down to if there is enough energy (heat in this case) to promote molecules to the vapor phase.)

Ask anyone who has ever worked with high vacuum systems about baking them out to get rid of those water layers right at the metal surface. It takes lots of heat and time - heat that would melt filaments. You bake at 300-400C under vacuum. Metal starts to glow around 460C.

Different materials have different affinities for water. Sure, water evaporates. We all have seen it. But can you explain setting a chunk of dry calcium chloride on a table and watching as the surface wets and it just ends up a puddle of liquid? A pan of water evaporates “dry” all on its own but a chunk of something else (I picked a deliquescent salt to go to the extreme) pulls water out of the air and dissolves in that water?

The difference is the attraction felt between the molecule and a metal surface and the molecule and the filament surface where different atoms in the plastic can make fairly strong bonds with the water. But because of the extreme surface area of the pitted and rough filament surface, there’s lots of active sites where water can stick down.

I don’t know this helps but the burner analogy doesn’t apply. There’s books on surface chemistry. It’s a huge field because that’s key to many catalysts among other things.

And now to dryers. I’ve got a single Sunlu S2 (single bay) filament dryer and just counted I’ve got 28 spools of filament dried hard and stored in polyethylene cereal boxes.

How do I manage my S2 (with 1/4 the capacity of an S4)? Right now my dryer is sitting unused and off while stuff is printing from the AMS which is reporting “1” for humidity.

I change out filaments as needed with no problem. I don’t leave them sitting out, I have hygrometers in the boxes, and all are pegged at the low end and displaying “10” which is the minimum they can and will ever display.

What is required to keep my filament dry? Not much, really. The filament I dried this summer is still at the ready. I don’t have to dry it since it’s already dry. Hygrometers confirm it. That’s why my Sunlu isn’t running. I fire it up when I need a color that isn’t already dry. It’s also how I have to operate here. I’ve had this printer for a year now and had seen moisture effects. I’m doing more PETG HF and if I stored open with that I couldn’t print. PLA too at certain times of the year.

I guess you will continue to express your opinion and I’ll express mine.

I’d buy into your theory if you would upgrade your data to something better that a 50 cent Asian hygrometer with no data sheet bought on Aliexpress or Amazon, in a cereal box with zero circulation.

Show me the data. Very minimal cost. Up and running for under 50 bucks.
Otherwise, how about “This is my OPINION” which seems fair at this point.

#1 is your MCU, 2A & 2B are Temperature and humidity sensors. Cheap

  1. Adafruit Metro ESP32-S2 - $22.50
    2A) Adafruit AHT20 - Temperature & Humidity Sensor $4.50
    or
    2b) Adafruit HTU31 Temperature & Humidity Sensor - $6.95

Check your hygrometers against this as it touted to be super accurate.
Adafruit HDC3022 Precision Temperature & Humidity Sensor - $8.95

It’s not worth arguing with you and not my job to educate you.

You go ahead with your opinions and I’ll go ahead with mine.

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I’ve always printed right on the carpet in my den. No rubber feet or anything. Works great.

Ok guys, thanks for hijacking the thread :wink: Good info all around, but let’s get back to it.

I’ve been testing a few other things, and i still need to do more testing on speed, walls, etc, but to me this is not normal - and i just want to know if it’s settings or bad models design - and which darn settings might cause this.
Check this from a part of a model i’m printing - it’s weird. This picture is taken while printing.

Any ideas? Any suggestions on what tests should
i run? I almost feel like depending on layer height the bands actually are closer together if the layer height is lower, idk…

Here’s more pictures from a print i just finished: Yoshi from Super Mario Remixed by MrGnarly - MakerWorld


Let me tell you - the surface is smoooooooth. I can’t complain about that. But those lines, i can see them clearly.
These were printed with profile 0.12 HQ (BBL default settings) + 3 wall loop, 6 top shell (1mm thickness), 5 bottom (0.8mm thickness), inner/outer/inner order, infill 10% gyroid, infill/wall overlap 10% - just to test if that’s going to have an impact. Seems like not.

Those lines in the first print could be from how the model was created. Can you see the pattern in Studio? May or may not be visible but in Fusion you can get that kind of thing if you don’t set refinement to high when exporting. Don’t know if that’s the cause or not. I do see patterning in the MW preview render though.

They kind of do!

I mean, clearly i can see them in the sphere, but not really on the hand

Gonna go test with a regular cube primitive i guess.

Thanks @MZip

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You might want toread this thread.

Faceted Walls on a print

Ok, so did a test with a basic cube primitive, right? Here’s the plate setup:

Here’s the results:

Settings were absolutely stock! Stock printer, filament, everything. Used 0.16mm Optimal.

I think i’m not crazy and this huge thread might be exactly what i’m talking about: Banding / Ringing type artifacts?

I did maintenance on the belts, cleanup rods, all that yada yada.
I just ran a VFA and it looks bad all around. Ughhh

Check this out…

Took the toolhead out and put it back in

Did you try fiddling with the toolhead?

Thanks - not yet.

I have the harden nozzle but forgot to get the gear, which will arrive next week. So i’m planing to replace that, maybe i’ll try what you did too. Is that procedure documented anywhere? I guess i gotta be extra careful with the screws and where they go haha, but willing to give it a shot next week

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It is important to know…

You can have a problem and be crazy.

I am proof.

Joking aside, I look forward to the results of your next test to see if that helps and gets it resolved.

I have yet to install my hardened gears and hardened steel nozzles on all my printers. I have been putting it off due to my hand tremors and the feeling I might screw up the whole thing.

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