Warping no matter what :(

Hello, i am conftronted with a lot of warping … i.e. see the following clip:

using X1 Carbon, Coolplate + GlueStick (tested 3 different)
Filament Bambulab PLA (Basic/Matt/Marmor), basic settings, increased the layers without cooling from 1 to 4, expecting that the Aux-Fan is to blame…

sometimes the result is ok but sometimes the object looses the bonding completly.
Redoing smaller parts isnt a problem. but 8-9 hours jobs suck :wink:

can you help me ?

I’m unclear as to what advantage one gets from using a cool plate. The standard answer for warping is to first raise the temperature. Then after that, if that doesn’t work, clean with dishwashing soap smeared on the plate with extremely hot water to ensure all contaminants are washed off. Or you could do it the other way around. Either way, I’m not seeing in your post an attempt to rule out the build surface as the culprit, it looks like your chasing first layer adhesion but you didn’t share an image of a first layer test.

What am I missing here?

ok then, i am cleaning of the buildplate hat water, soap and ipa. then it gets glued.
What plate would you recommend ? can i keep the top closed for it ?

“First layer test” , just a plane layer ? the problem occurs later on, not directy on the first layers.

Nozzletemp is 220° Bed Temp 35° (using standardtemp).

“I’m not seeing in your post an attempt to rule out the build surface” what do you mean ?
its the 1st time (afaik) that i need help … and obviously i found not the right solution. what i tried so far is posted above

A first layer test will tell you a lot about the adhesion of your filament and your plate. The simplest test is to take a cube primitive, scale it to 230x220x0.50mm assuming a 0.40mm nozzle. What this will do is print only one layer on the plate. If you have any areas where either the plate is contaminated, uneven or the heater is malfunctioning, it will display it quickly. Here’s a recent post on the topic.

It is important that if you’re just now seeing problems, contaminants accumulate over time. It could be as simple as just dust or cooking residue from kitchen oils, to humidity to smoke from one’s fireplace. Anything can pile up on the surface and one wouldn’t be able to see it.

I’m assuming that you did a bed level test just to rule out an uneven build surface although that is very unlikely.

With regards to your question about what plate is recommended. The most forgiving plate for PLA is a texture PEI plate. It’s just a nice surface to print on no matter what. But it is limited it comes to certain materials such as higher temp materials. It will work with ABS as an example but ABS needs help. So does PC and to a lesser extent, PETG. By help I mean glue or higher plate temps.

Having said all that, just remember that the very first REPRAP 3D printers only had two kinds of material and those were PLA and ABS. Neither one had the advantage of a heated plate and they used a wood plate with painter’s tape and guess what? The filament stuck. So we are spoiled in this current era of multi-material magnetically held build surfaces.

The point here is that you want to create a test model that mimics the problem you are seeing that doesn’t use a lot of filament. This way you can run repeated quick trial and error tests without wasting a lot of time and filament.

I might suggest the following test but do NOT change the temperature:

Divide your plate into four quadrants or strips. Trips might be better since if you create a strip model, it will have more length to contract thus causing more thermal stress and inviting greater warping.

  1. Strip one will be bare plate with no treatment
  2. Strip two will be covered with painter’s tape
  3. Strip 3, repeat strip one but this time apply glue to the bare plate.
  4. Strip 4, repeat strip two but apply glue to the painter’s tape.

Now print the model on each surface and watch the results. This will tell you a lot about how your filament and build surface are reacting to one another.

This might look like this on the plate after slicing. In this case, I might suggest a 150x10x10mm noting that under each model there would be a different surface. It would be best if you used the current profile that you are seeing the warping with and just create a second plate for the experimental models. This would ensure that you’ve not introduced any variables to your experiment.

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I’ve had pretty good success using suggestions from this post:

holy ■■■■ ! never expected such an detailed explanation and help. wow.
1st of all, and maybe its the wrong attitude for driving 3d-printers, i bought the x1 carbon back in the days to have a mostly hustle free printing experience, as i barely have spare time, and trying to figure out how i get some prints for my real hobbies done isnt part of it (at least i try to not make it a part of it ^^)
I am printing 99% PLA and i’ve got a textured PEI laying around → i will give it a try

Large print keeps warping at corners. Tried liquid glue and brims - #5 by Rom3oDelta7 is indeed an interesting post.

i realsed the accumulating contamination and i am really cleaning the plates intesivly and i know that the beginning of 3d printing was much more problematic and that i am having a luxury problem.

as i said, i will give the PEI plate + some troubleshooting a good try. if all that fails as well, printing bigger objects i will come back and seriously test it.

i am feeling a bit bad, as you spent so much time into your posting and i am really thankful for that!

p.s. yeah, doing the bed-leveling nearly each time (especially on bigger prints) but i will check for an eneven / warped surfice, just to be sure.

Thank you again!

wrt reprap- they printed slow, and no enclosure. Not the same as most folk with the x1

You completely missed the entire point of the example. Of course these are different in so many ways. That is so obvious it shouldn’t need to be stated. The analogy here is that we’ve gotten so used to doing things with modern equipment, we forget that before trains, planes and automobiles people used to walk to their destinations or take horseback.

My intent was to show that sometimes change does not represent progress, and lest we forget history, we often overlook older techniques previously thought to be obsolete. Sometimes, rolling back the clock to basics is a useful reset when dealing with technology of any type, not just 3D printing.

As an example, in the case of first-layer adhesion issues, I’ve recently reverted to using Kapton tape as a method for printing surfaces in specific, unique use-cases that cannot be replicated with some of the newer, higher-tech solutions such as PEI. As I’ve stated in many other posts on this forum: do NOT trust anything you haven’t personally verified for yourself. No matter the source, even if it’s from me. This mistrust is simply scientific rigor reasserting healthy skepticism.

You can also buy filaments that have been modified to warp less. Well, that’s what the advertising says. I haven’t yet tried this, but in the case of ABS (which I realize isn’t the OP’s filament) I’m sometimes tempted to give it a try.

Sometimes I think some of the people who respond think everyone who uses a 3D printer is an IT person. I have also experienced the warping issue. I am the polar opposite of many of the people who post here in that I have nearly 100% success with the cool plate and large amounts of failure on the PEI side. I replaced my cool plate with a new adhesive cool plate and most of my issues went away. I am 100% certain this comment will irritate most of those posters, but I almost never clean my plate. The less I clean it, the better it works. The only downside I’ve found is that you may start to see some old prints ghosting in the bottom of the new print. At that point I do wipe it down and get a little more aggressive with a scraper. I was quite disappointed to see they discontinued the cool plate. I would have bought 100 of them had I known that was coming.
Also, periodically the machine tells me to leave the door open when printing and that also reduced the number of warpages. BY no means am I an expert and I’m sure I"ll be labeled for sharing my experience, but when I was fighting the issues there isn’t anything I wouldn’t have tried to fix it.

It is not necessarily common, as Bambulab does not yet offer Plates of this type for its printers, but it is very effective: Ungewünschte Linie in Wand - #9 by KanneKaffe

What is that stuff, and why would it solve warping?

I believe he is referring to a chemically coated glass plate. Which is the antithesis to what the design philosophy that magnetic plates and Bambu Labs is trying to achieve in my view.

There is an interesting 3 year old video on this topic I just caught this weekend which discusses 3D Vision Miner’s Nano adhesive. Fast forward to the segment here at 3:00

This adhesive from Vision Miner is supposedly the chemical used on Borosilicate plates. In other words, “old school”.

There have been some good suggestions on the thread. But if they haven’t solved it, consider these.

  • If you have a 9 hour print that you need flat edges, don’t even think about not using a brim. Yes… no one wants to deal with removing them, but they are cheap and effective insurance against corner raising. They are not fool proof, but they are effective.
  • As Bambu says “Glue Stick Will Help”.
  • Consider altering the slice to remove extra infill near the edges. In plastic molding, thick areas always warp. 3D printing isn’t much different. The higher the infill, the greater the chance of warpage. This is because plastic that is cooling is contracting and shrinking. When you lay down a layer of filament, that layer on the bed is nice and toasty (at bed temp). But every layer above that will be laid down and cool a little quicker because its further from the heat source. At some point you get layers cooling so quickly that they literally contract enough to pull the lower layers away from the bed (sometimes this force is strong enough it pulls the plate away from the magnets). This is only made worse by having more plastic (high infill) to pull on the layers below. Luckily, near the middle the forces are coming from all over the place, but near the edges, the force only curl in one direction (relatively speaking). So using a slight lower infill can help. Not the most effective method to help with this problem, but when put together with others, it can make a difference.
  • Also keep a eye out for other sources of cooling. Not sure the Aux fan is the culprit, but if the machine is using a chamber fan to exhaust heat and sucking in A/C cooled air, that could be a contributor. Remember, quick cooling causes shrinkage and warping.

I believe (just my guess) the Cool Plate is for those that Bambu knows will leave the printer closed up (like me). Its a plate the can offer the best low temp adhesion they can provide, while using very little heat from the bed which will reduce the chance of heat creep and clogs in the cool side of the hot-end if people choose to leave it closed. Again, just my guess.

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These glass plates are rigid, they don’t bend. That’s the point. Together with a good adhesive, the printed object not only holds, but it also doesn’t warp because the glass plate doesn’t give way.Before the X1, I only printed on glass for these reasons.

The coating creates a nicer surface on the underside, otherwise the printed object becomes so smooth directly on glass that it reflects.

Some people like this, but I prefer the different surface structure (similar to the structured plates). This coating also makes the printed objects a little easier to remove. Because of the coating, the prints should also hold a little better (even without additional means, such as spray), I believe. If not, there are appropriate additional means available.

For some period of time that build plate was standard issue on new Creality printers.

I have a small bottle of the vision miner adhesive mentioned above, and I used it last week to hold down some large ABS prints to the engineering build plate for the final prints. If anything, It works all too well. If it were applied directly to glass or a similar rigid surface and then printed upon, I have serious doubts you could remove the print from the heated bed without doing significant damage to the print. You’d probably want to print on tape as a guarantee you could release it. Or better yet cover layer 1 with PVA and then dissolve it away afterward. If it worked, it would be a very nice, low-stress way to do it.

alright then :wink: i am coming back with some news.
funny, both remaining 0.4 nozzles clocked (the old and the new one) within 36 hours printing on structured PEI although open door and lit … and i wasnt able to get it running. both. no matter what i tried. NVM, switched to 0.6 + textured, made some smaller prints np, started to bigger one (from the clip above) and right the same error.

i did a 1-layer test, and it came out flawlessly, at least 0.3mm

i realised, that the problem is always right infront of the auxfan → set it to 0%, and the print was fine. Switched to coolplate and closed case → same problem as before :-/ its not a problem of the baselayers. it starts later but i dont know why.

will go on testing :wink:

You’ve made no mention of your part cooling fan. Or, if so, I missed it. What percentage is it set to?

Interesting parallel with my own recent experience (albeit with ABS) is that the same kind of filleted/chamfered bottom is what gave me the most problems with warping. Problem went away when I did away with the fillets on the bottom of the model. Then I could use mouse ears. For some reason, the mouse ears don’t connect at all to the main model (I’m pretty sure it’s a bug) if the bottom is filleted. So, with no fillets on the bottom and with mouse ears turned on, it solved my warp problem. Maybe you want to try the same. If nothing else, if it works it might help you pinpoint the problem to that.

Edit: In my case, the fillets meant it was classified as an overhang, which increased the fan speed, which undoubtedly strongly contributed to the warping. May or may not apply to your situation.

ok , 1st i thought this has been the solution (to uncheck the forced cooling on overhang , one print worked flawlessly. now i tried another one and …

i really have no clue where to look for it, buildplate doesnt matter, filament doesnt matter, nozzle (.4 or .6) doesnt matter.
the problem starts after filling of the base compartments. gonna try a bit

That build plate is really shiny… How are you cleaning it?